(December 2, 1975)

Ford (hereinafter referred to as Ford): Mr. Chairman, we had a very good discussion this morning.

Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): What did you discuss?

Ford: We discussed the problems between us and the Soviet Union, as well as our countermeasures on a global scale, and the necessity for cooperation between my country and your country to achieve goals that are beneficial to both of our countries.

Mao: We don't have that kind of ability, we can only fire empty cannons.

Ford: I don't believe that, Mr. Chairman.

Mao: If it comes to scolding people, we do have a little bit of that ability.

Ford: We can too.

Mao: You can too? Then we should reach an agreement.

Ford: We can also use force to deal with those countries that create trouble.

Mao: That's not bad. Then we can reach another agreement.

Ford: This morning, when we discussed, we had very clear discussion goals.

Mao: Besides the Soviet imperialists, it couldn't be anyone else.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, this morning, we used some very strong language.

[1]
This is the conversation between Mao Zedong and U.S. President Ford.

Mao: (Pointing to Deng Xiaoping [1]) Did you criticize him?

Ford: What we strongly criticized was another country.

Mao: That country in the north.

Ford: Right.

Mao: (To Ambassador to the United States Huang Zhen) Comrade Huang Zhen [2], how are things going? Are you still going back to the United States?

Huang Zhen: I will follow the Chairman's instructions.

Mao: Mr. President, do you want him?

Ford: Of course we want him to go back. Our relationship is excellent. It is very important for the Ambassador to return to the United States, just like if Mr. Bush [3] (Ambassador to China) were to stay in Beijing.

Mao: (To Bush) Are you staying in Beijing?

Bush: Only for a few more days.

Mao: You've been promoted.

Ford: Yes, he's been promoted. We will nominate a successor in a month.

Mao: We don't want him to leave.

Ford: He is an outstanding person, so I want him to return to the United States. But we will find someone just as good to replace him.

Mao: That's good. I think it's more beneficial for Comrade Huang Zhen to return to the United States.

[1]
Deng Xiaoping, then served as Vice Chairman of the CPC Central Committee, Vice Premier of the State Council, Vice Chairman of the Central Military Commission, and Chief of General Staff of the Chinese People's Liberation Army.
[2]
Huang Zhen, in May 1973, China and the United States established liaison offices in each other's capitals, establishing diplomatic relations at the ambassadorial level. Huang Zhen served as the director of the Chinese Liaison Office in the United States.
[3]
George Herbert Walker Bush, also known as George H.W. Bush, served as the Director of the U.S. Liaison Office in Beijing from 1974 to 1975, and later served as the 41st President of the United States from January 1989 to January 1993.

Huang: I will resolutely carry out the Chairman's instructions. I do want to return to the country, because I have been stationed abroad for too long. But I will do as the Chairman says.

Mao: You should stay there for another one to two years.

Huang: Okay, I will definitely go back and resolutely carry out the Chairman's instructions.

Mao: Some young people criticize him (referring to Huang Zhen). These two young people (referring to the two interpreters present, Tang Wensheng and Wang Hairong) also have some criticisms of Qiao [1]. These people cannot be ignored, otherwise you will suffer at their hands. This is a civil war. There are many big-character posters out there now. You might as well go to Tsinghua and Peking University to take a look.

Ford: I don't quite understand these things. Mr. Chairman, I hope that you letting the Ambassador return to the United States for another two years means that we can continue to develop the good relationship between our two countries.

Mao: Yes, yes, the relationship between our two countries must continue to develop. I think that there are no major problems between our two countries now. Your country and my country, this year, next year, and the year after next, probably won't have any major problems between us. The situation in the future may become a little better.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, I think we have to strengthen cooperation on international affairs to deal with challenges from countries like the Soviet Union.

Mao: Yes, we have no confidence in the Soviet Union at all. Comrade Deng Xiaoping also doesn't like the Soviet Union.

Ford: We feel the same way. They are expanding all over the world, plundering territory and economic resources. We must face their challenges.

Mao: Good. We must also face the challenges.

Ford: We hope that starting next year, our bilateral relations can be improved. We believe that now is the time for our two countries' relations to make substantial progress.

[1]
Qiao, refers to Qiao Guanhua, who was then the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Mao: You mean between our two countries?

Ford: Yes.

Mao: That's very good.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, if your country and my country work together to deal with the challenges from the Soviet Union, then the normalization of diplomatic relations between the United States and the People's Republic of China will be supported in my country.

Mao: Very good. However, we are just talking about it here. We still need to observe how the Soviet Union will act.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, we must impress the Soviet Union with the cooperation between the United States and the People's Republic of China. Words are useless, there must be practical actions. We will continue to put pressure on them. I hope that the pressure from you is as strong as our pressure.

Mao: We just fire empty cannons and scold people.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, what we are going to do is more than that, and it has been so in the past. The American people want their president to be strong and powerful. We will act that way in the future, instead of just talking and not doing, firing empty cannons.

Mao: Do you have solid cannons?

Ford: Yes, we will always prepare gunpowder, and if they come to challenge us, then our gunpowder will not be idle.

Mao: Very good, that's not bad either. However, you are now coexisting peacefully.

Ford: But that doesn't mean we will sit idly by and watch any expansionist behavior. In fact, we are already dealing with these challenges and will continue to do so.

Mao: That's very good. Do we need to sign an agreement?

Ford: Yes, we can work together to achieve the same effect. You put pressure from the east, and I put pressure from the west.

Mao: Okay. This is a gentleman's agreement.

Ford: This is the best way to succeed, to deal with those petty people who are not gentlemen.

Mao: They are petty people.

Ford: The words we used this morning were even stronger than that.

Mao: I am very grateful to the President for coming to see me. I hope that our two countries can be more friendly in the future.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, this is precisely the sincere wish of the American people and myself. I hope you clearly understand that the historic actions between our two countries over the past three years have been fully supported by the American people. The American people, like us, recognize that strong action must be taken to stop expansionist countries like the Soviet Union. We will maintain our military strength and be prepared to use it. In our view, this is the best way to make the world stable and developed.

Mao: Good. There are no contradictions between us.

Ford: Very correct. If there are contradictions between us, we will sit down and negotiate, trying to understand each other and eliminate the contradictions.

Mao: Very good. Our two countries have different social systems and ideologies, and contradictions always exist.

Ford: But this does not affect our close cooperation, which is beneficial to both of our countries and to everyone.

Mao: For example, we don't have this kind of conversation with the Soviet Union that we have with you. I have been to the Soviet Union twice, and Khrushchev [1] has been to Beijing three times. Not a single conversation was truly satisfactory.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, I have met with Mr. Brezhnev [2] twice. Sometimes the talks go smoothly, sometimes they don't. I think this is precisely an external manifestation of our firm attitude. We cannot agree with some of their proposals, and we will not agree in the future. We will remain firm and maintain our military strength. They understand this, and I think the best way for our two countries is to take a firm stand together. This is exactly what we intend to do.

Mao: Good.

Mao: How are your relations with Japan now? Are they better than before?

Ford: Yes, they are better than before. Mr. Chairman, as you know, I visited Japan about a year ago. This was the first time a sitting U.S. president had visited Japan. About a month later, the Emperor and Empress of Japan visited the United States. This was also the first time their head of state had come to our country. We feel that U.S.-Japan relations are at their best since World War II.

Mao: Japan is also threatened by the Soviet Union.

Ford: I agree with that. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I think it is important that Sino-Japanese relations continue to improve, just as U.S.-Japan relations are constantly improving. In fact, U.S.-Japan relations are now the best in history.

Mao: For Japan, relations with you are the first priority, and relations with us are the second priority.

Ford: Are your relations with Japan good?

Mao: Not too bad, but not very good either.

Ford: You hope that Sino-Japanese relations will improve, right?

Mao: Yes. There are pro-Soviet factions within their country who oppose talking about hegemony.

Kissinger [1] (hereinafter referred to as Kissinger): Or maybe they are afraid to talk about it.

Mao: That's right.

Ford: How are your relations with Western European countries, Mr. Chairman?

[1]
Khrushchev, formerly the First Secretary of the CPSU Central Committee, stepped down in 1964.
[2]
Brezhnev, then the First Secretary of the CPSU Central Committee.
[1]
Kissinger, then served as the U.S. Secretary of State.

Mao: Much, much better than our relations with Japan.

Ford: This is very important. It is important that we maintain good relations with Western Europe and that you maintain good relations with Western Europe, so that we can deal with any Soviet expansion in Western Europe.

Mao: Yes, yes, this is a common point between us and you. We have no conflicting interests with European countries.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, in fact, some of us believe that China is better able than some European countries to keep Europe united and to strengthen NATO.

Mao: They are not of one mind.

Ford: Some European countries are not as strong and frank as they appear to be.

Mao: I think Sweden is not bad, and West Germany is not bad either. Yugoslavia is also very good. The Netherlands and Belgium are slightly worse.

Ford: Very correct. The Soviet Union is trying to exploit the weaknesses of Portugal and Italy. We must stop it, and we intend to do so.

Mao: Yes, now Portugal seems to be more stable. The situation seems to be developing in a good direction.

Ford: The situation has developed very encouragingly in the past forty-eight hours. The side we support is gaining the upper hand and taking action to stabilize the situation. We agree with your view that Yugoslavia is important and plays an important role in resisting the Soviet Union. But we are very concerned about what might happen after Tito [1] passes away.

[1]
Tito (1892-1980), President of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Tito was the founder of the Non-Aligned Movement. He opposed the monopoly of international affairs by great powers, opposed war, maintained peace, and won international respect for Yugoslavia. In 1991, four republics of Yugoslavia successively declared independence. On April 27, 1992, the Parliament of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia adopted a new constitution, announcing the joint establishment of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia by the Republic of Serbia and the Republic of Montenegro. The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia officially disintegrated.

Mao: Yes. Maybe after Tito it will be Kardelj [1].

Kissinger: But we are concerned about the possible reactions at home and abroad. We are working on this. Different factors will affect external groups.

Mao: Yes, Yugoslavia has many provinces. It is composed of many former small countries.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, this summer, I made an interesting trip to Romania. I was deeply impressed by President Ceausescu's [2] strength and independence.

Mao: Very good.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, we are also very concerned about the situation in Spain. We support the King of Spain. We hope that he can handle the factors that are undermining the Kingdom of Spain. We will work with him to strive for the most basic control of the situation during this transition period.

Mao: If the European Community [3] absorbs Spain, we think that, in any case, it is a good thing. Does the European Community want Spain and Portugal?

Ford: Mr. Chairman, we are urging NATO to be more friendly to Spain, even if France opposes it. We hope that under the leadership of the new King, Spain will be more easily accepted by NATO. In addition, we feel that the European Common Market should be more responsive to the Spanish government and work towards the goal of Western European integration. We will do our best in both of these directions.

Kissinger: For Europeans, they are not radical enough.

[1]
Edvard Kardelj, an outstanding leader of the Yugoslav Party and state, a famous Marxist theorist, and an activist in the international communist movement. He was then the Vice President and Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Federal Government of Yugoslavia.
[2]
Ceausescu, President of the Socialist Republic of Romania.
[3]
European Community, an international organization in which Western European countries promote European economic and political integration and have certain supranational mechanisms and functions. On April 8, 1965, the European Coal and Steel Community, the European Atomic Energy Community, and the European Economic Community were unified and called the European Community, abbreviated as the EC, the predecessor of the European Union.

Mao: Is that so? By the way, they used to fight all the time. Also, you didn't scold France before.

Ford: Yes, we support the new King of Spain. Because the southern part of Western Europe must remain strong, including Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey, and Yugoslavia. If we are to resist Soviet expansionism, these countries must be strengthened.

Mao: Good. We think Greece should become better than it is now.

Ford: Yes, they have gone through a difficult period, and we feel that the new government is moving in the right direction. We will help them. We hope that eventually they will return to NATO and become a member state.

Mao: That's not bad.

Ford: Of course, Greece has some radical ideas, which, from our point of view, are not very good, will weaken NATO, and give the Soviet Union an opportunity to take advantage of.

Mao: Is that so?!

Ford: Let's look at the Middle East, Mr. Chairman. We believe that the Sinai Agreement [1] helps to reduce Soviet influence in the region, but we also recognize that a broad peace in the region must be achieved as soon as possible. Once the next U.S. election is over, we will work to achieve a broad and lasting peace in the region.

Mao: Lasting peace is difficult to achieve.

[1]
In the Third Middle East War in 1967, Israel occupied the Sinai Peninsula of Egypt. Since then, in order to eliminate Soviet influence in the Middle East, the United States has been committed to bringing Egypt and Israel together for peace talks on the Sinai Peninsula issue. On September 2, 1975, Egypt and Israel signed an agreement on Sinai. This was the second agreement on the Sinai issue after Egypt and Israel reached an agreement on the disengagement of troops between the two countries in January 1974. In the agreement, both sides made concessions. Israel withdrew from part of the Sinai territory and abandoned the demand to end the state of war. Egypt agreed to open the Suez Canal to Israeli non-military materials.

Ford: Yes, they have been unable to achieve peace for hundreds of years. But as long as we work to achieve it, once successful, it will eliminate most of the Soviet influence in the region. If the situation remains stagnant, then the Soviet Union will have the opportunity to create trouble. Therefore, we believe that we must continue to move forward. The Sinai Agreement helps us to achieve good relations with Egypt. After the next election, if we continue to move forward and strive for a wider range of peace, it will have a significant impact on driving Soviet influence out of the region.

Mao: I don't object to doing that.

Ford: Regarding the South Asian subcontinent, we hope to maintain our influence through the base on Diego Garcia Island. Of course, we will continue to improve relations with Pakistan. We have lifted the arms embargo on them, so they can find ways to develop sufficient military strength to convince India that launching any military action is not worth trying.

Mao: That's very good.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, what do you think of the situation in Bangladesh?

Mao: The situation there is getting better, but it is not stable. We are preparing to send an ambassador there. Maybe it will take him a long time to get there.

Ford: Are you concerned that India might intervene, take military action against Bangladesh, and gain dominance?

Mao: There is such a danger. We must be vigilant.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, India always does some unwise things against other countries. I hope they will not make mistakes on Bangladesh.

Mao: That's right. If they take action there, we will oppose them.

Ford: We are working with Pakistan and Iran to prevent this from happening. We will condemn any such action by India.

Mao: Good, we have reached another agreement.

Ford: I am sure you are as concerned as we are about the Soviet presence in the Indian Ocean and their activities in East Africa. We strongly oppose this kind of move. I would like to specifically mention Angola [1] here. We are taking preemptive action there to prevent the Soviet Union from gaining a foothold on the African continent.

Mao: You don't seem to have any way, and neither do we.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, I think both of us can do better.

Mao: I agree to drive the Soviet Union out.

Ford: If we work hard together, we can do it.

Mao: It can be done through Congo and Kinshasa in Zaire.

Deng Xiaoping (hereinafter referred to as Deng): (To Mao Zedong) The main problem here is South Africa, which will get involved. This will anger the entire Black Africa. This makes the whole thing complicated.

Mao: South Africa has a bad reputation.

Ford: But they are stopping Soviet expansion. We think this is admirable. We have given a lot of money to Zambia and Zaire. We imagine that if we take action ourselves, and China and other countries also take action, we can prevent the Soviet Union from gaining an important naval base and prevent them from controlling Angola's main resources. We strongly oppose Cuba's involvement. Now, they have five or six thousand people in Angola. We don't think this is a good thing. We also see the Soviet Union in this way.

Deng: You mean, you admire South Africa?

Ford: No. They strongly oppose the Soviet Union. They are doing this entirely for their own benefit. The United States has not intervened in this matter.

Deng: In Angola.

Ford: South Africa opposes the People's Liberation Army of Angola.

Mao: This issue needs to be studied.

Ford: It's urgent.

Mao: I don't think the People's Liberation Army of Angola will succeed.

Ford: We also hope they will not succeed.

Kissinger: If the other two factions are well-trained enough, we can provide them with weapons. This way we can prevent the People's Liberation Army of Angola from winning. Those two factions need to be trained and need to understand guerrilla warfare. We can provide them with weapons, but others need to train them.

Mao: In the past, we supported them through Tanzania. But Tanzania would withhold certain things. Maybe now we can go through Zaire.

Deng: It may be better to go through Zaire.

Kissinger: Then go through Zaire. The Chinese side may be able to use its influence with it and Mozambique. For Africa, if Mozambique opposes the Soviet bloc and the People's Liberation Army of Angola, then it has great symbolic significance.

Ford: But, you know, Mozambique supports the People's Liberation Army of Angola. This may be difficult.

Deng: Impossible.

Kissinger: I know. But they may not understand what they are doing, because they respect China very much.

Mao: We can try it.

Kissinger: I don't think Mozambique understands what is happening in Angola. They need someone to give them advice, and they are more willing to listen to China than to us.

Mao: We can try it.

Deng: We can try, but it is unlikely to succeed.

Kissinger: That's right.

Mao: Zaire may be more reliable.

Kissinger: Zaire should become a base for providing support. We will not get help from Mozambique, but maybe they will stay out of it. We don't expect help from Mozambique, but maybe they will at least remain neutral.

Mao: We'll try it.

Ford: I want to say again, it's urgent. Because the other two factions need to be supported. Until recently, they were doing very well. Currently, the situation is at a stalemate. If the People's Liberation Army of Angola still dominates after efforts by us, you, and other countries, it will be a tragedy.

Mao: It's hard to say. Do you think that's how things are?

Ford: I might say that's how things are for Angola. Before leaving Washington, I just approved $35 million in aid to those two factions. This fully demonstrates that we will face the Soviet challenge and defeat the People's Liberation Army of Angola.

Mao: Good.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to discuss the world situation, to express our desire to develop bilateral relations, to work together on many issues, and to resolve many, many world conflicts.

Mao: Yes, now some reporters say that the relationship between our two sides is very bad. Maybe you should reveal some information to them and give them some inside information.

Kissinger: This requires joint efforts. They have also found out some information in Beijing.

Mao: But this has nothing to do with us. It was revealed by some foreigners.

Ford: Mr. Chairman, we don't believe what is in the newspapers. I think it is very important that our two countries together give the world the impression that our relationship is very good. When I return to the United States, I will say that we have a very good relationship. I hope your people will do the same. It is important not only that our two sides have a good relationship, but also that the world believes that our relationship is good.

Mao: We will come little by little.

Ford: We will also work hard.

Mao: Then let's leave it at that.