(May 29, 1974)

[Abdul Razak (1922–1976), also known as Razak or Abdul Razak, full name Abdul Razak Hussein. After Tunku Abdul Rahman took over as UMNO President in 1951, Abdul Razak became UMNO Vice President. For a long time, he was known as Tunku's strong assistant and successor. After the independence of the Federation of Malaya, he served as Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Defense until Tunku Abdul Rahman announced his retirement in 1970, after which he assumed the position of UMNO President and began serving as the second Prime Minister of Malaysia on September 22, 1970.]

Chairman: (to the Prime Minister) What did you talk about?

Prime Minister: It was written in the UN communiqué that those who have joined Malaysian nationality are no longer Chinese citizens. That was discussed at the UN, meaning we do not approve of dual nationality. Originally, this issue had been resolved before the Bandung Conference, but they were not clear about it, and now it has been clarified. He said 40% of the Chinese are four million, and there are still 200,000 people of Chinese descent there who have not obtained Malaysian nationality and do not have our passports. This issue will be resolved on a voluntary basis after the embassy is established. We support people of Chinese descent joining Malaysian nationality. If they want to retain Chinese nationality, we will issue overseas Chinese passports. There are no problems now; this has been resolved, and we have an understanding on this point, though it was not written into the communiqué.

Razak: We will discuss this issue further after establishing diplomatic relations. Most Chinese are loyal to the country. Some of them have become cabinet ministers; I have made them ministers in my government. But a small group of people are still fighting us in the jungle. This is very bad. We told them there is no reason to fight our government, because we give freedom to people of all different ideologies, on the condition that they do not resort to force, but they are still fighting us. We hope to resolve this issue later. Many people in Sarawak have surrendered—no, not surrendered, but laid down their weapons. But there are still people fighting us in the jungles of Malaysia.

Chairman: Have you talked to them?

Razak: No. They are unwilling to negotiate with us. I hope to discuss with Premier Zhou how to resolve this issue. Their numbers are small, but they are very annoying to us. This war cannot be won, because they oppose the government, the people, and the country. Two days before I came, they blew up hundreds of road-building machines again, which shows that their goal is destructive and does no good for the country. We told them that their struggle is useless, and they should come out, lay down their weapons, and help us build a united, happy country.

Chairman: As far as I know, they are in the border area between the two countries—that is, Thailand and them (referring to Malaysia)—mainly in Thailand.

Razak: No, some of them, about 150 to 200 people, have run back into our country. I hope to get your help to resolve this issue. Previously, they said they received encouragement from China. Now that our two countries have established diplomatic relations, I hope to tell them that the government of the People's Republic of China has recognized us, and our two countries have established diplomatic relations, so they no longer have any reason to oppose our government. I hope you can help us stop this fight, because it only consumes our strength and does no good for us or for them. They are losing their lives for no reason, no purpose.

Chairman: This matter is difficult, very troublesome.

Razak: I hope to discuss this issue with the Premier. These people are a very troublesome matter for us.

Chairman: Both sides have different opinions.

Razak: They say they are fighting for their ideology, for the people, for the oppressed people, but our policy is precisely to help the oppressed people, so I think there is no disagreement between the two. It's just that they want to seize power by force, which we cannot allow, because we are an elected government, chosen by the people, and most people support us; they are just a small group.

Chairman: Then why are you afraid?

Razak: Because we don't want to fight. If we continue to fight, we will kill them, and we don't like killing people. We want everyone to live a happy life.

Chairman: We haven't had much contact for many years either. They talked with Tunku Abdul Rahman, but the talks failed.

Razak: That was a long time ago, in 1956.

Chairman: Right, 1956. At that time, we had no contact, and then they went to Beijing.

Razak: Yes, it seems so.

Chairman: Later, their representatives came to Beijing. Several communist representatives I knew came to us, from Indonesia, Malaysia, and also Myanmar, Thailand; we couldn't refuse them.

Razak: Yes, we understand. But now, if you have contact with them, and you tell them not to fight anymore, to come out and help us build a happy, unified country, that would certainly be a great help to us.

Chairman: This is difficult. These people won't listen to us!

Razak: Then we will be forced to fight them, unless they lay down their weapons.

Chairman: They don't listen to you, and they don't listen to us either. That's your internal affair, we can't interfere.

Razak: Right, but I can tell them that you have no relationship with them, that you have recognized our government, and that they are bandits, and we will deal with them. After hearing that, they will surely be very scared.

Chairman: How can there be no relationship?! That's not good to say.

Razak: Do you have a relationship?

Chairman: We do have a relationship! We do! Our laws recognize the right of such people from foreign countries to exist in Beijing or other places in our country. We advised the Communist Party of Burma to talk with the Burmese government, but the talks did not succeed.

Razak: We are not afraid to give them the right to exist; we just don't want them to fight. We are willing to give them social status; we just hope they stop fighting, because they no longer have any reason to continue fighting. Now you are friendly to us, and we are friendly to you, so what reason is there to continue fighting?

Chairman: Do you recognize their existence as a political party?

Razak: No, they cannot exist as a political party because they engage in armed struggle. We banned them because they advocate armed struggle. But they can participate in politics, for example, those in Sarawak, they laid down their weapons and can participate in work and politics as ordinary citizens. Their party uses force and kills people, so it cannot exist as a political party, but these individuals can participate in politics.

Chairman: Then it's impossible to reach an agreement! (Everyone laughs)

Razak: In Sarawak, 560 people agreed; they laid down their weapons and can participate in politics.

Chairman: Oh, that's in the north, right? You should try talking to them.

Razak: If they are ready to talk, we are willing to talk. If those leaders are ready to come out and talk with us like the leaders in Sarawak, and abandon the struggle, we can talk with them. In our society, people are free to choose; they can be socialists, communists, or capitalists, but they cannot use force against the government. Whatever they believe in their hearts is their own business. We are a free society.

Chairman: I cannot speak on behalf of their people on these matters.

Razak: I know. All I ask of you is to help us as much as you can. If there is an opportunity for negotiation, we will talk. Because we truly want peace, to stop the fighting, and their lives can also be saved, becoming useful citizens to society. We have 4 million Chinese, and they all live very happily and prosperously. However, these people are fighting, dying from time to time, and they will never achieve their goals.

Chairman: Because we are also communists, we cannot refuse communists from various countries to come to our country. As for your internal affairs, we cannot interfere. Whether you have peace or war, that is your own business.

Razak: Yes, thank you.

Chairman: I think there are too few communists in your country. (Everyone laughs)

Razak: Few, but very annoying. They kill people, destroy progress, destroy machines, tractors, so we call them bandits; in fact, they are not communists, but bandits.

Chairman: We also call them "bandits"! (Everyone laughs)

Razak: No, you are our friends.

Chairman: Chiang Kai-shek called us that, "communist bandits."

Razak: Yes, but you are our friends. They are fighting us, fighting us with arms. We don't consider them communists; we don't fight communists; we fight those who oppose us with force.

Chairman: They started when the Japanese occupied Malaysia and other countries, right?

Razak: Yes. We met with them once in 1956. At that time, we said, since we are about to be independent, why don't you lay down your weapons and help us consolidate independence and build the country? But they refused. Since then, we have never met again.

Chairman: We only learned about it from the newspapers at that time.

Razak: My only concern is that if they don't give up the struggle, we will have to use the army and police to kill them. We don't want to kill people unless absolutely necessary.

Chairman: That's your policy, your method. We can't say anything. Advising you not to kill people won't work either. (Everyone laughs)

Razak: We don't want to kill them, but they are attacking us. If the war stops, their lives can be saved.

Chairman: Those people are desperate, fearless of death. (Everyone laughs) You hit them, and they run away. (Razak nods and smiles) You don't hit them, and they come back.

Razak: Yes, yes, they come back. You are absolutely right. (Everyone laughs)

Chairman: It's troublesome! This matter, you go and solve it. You figure out a way.

Razak: Thank you. I will tell them that I discussed this with you. You said that you have no relationship with them, and these matters are our internal affairs. If they don't give up the struggle, we will deal with them, and they will perish, that's how it is.

Chairman: There is a relationship! You can't say there's no relationship. But we don't interfere in your internal affairs.

Razak: Yes, that's our internal affair, and it has nothing to do with the Chairman.

Chairman: We do have a relationship! But we don't interfere in your internal affairs. If you say we have no relationship, that's not good!

Razak: There was a relationship in the past, but not now.

Chairman: There is a relationship now, and there will be in the future! Because I am a communist! How can there be no relationship? As for what policies you adopt, we cannot interfere.

Razak: Then I will say that you said this is our internal affair.

Chairman: That's fine. It's like you still have a relationship with Britain! You can't say you have no relationship with Britain.

Razak: Yes, that's a relationship between states.

Chairman: We have a relationship between parties. We have a state relationship with you. All in all, it's a troublesome issue. It needs to be handled appropriately.

Razak: Precisely for this reason, I ask the Chairman to help me resolve it.

Chairman: It's difficult for me to help now. Anyway, they are very few people, so you don't need to be afraid of them now.

Razak: We are not afraid of them, but we don't want to continue fighting them and killing them. We don't like killing people.

Chairman: We have relationships with many communist parties in various countries. We don't hide this. If they have victory and development, we are happy. But our newspapers report inaccurately. For example, regarding India, in the past, it always said "flourishing development," which is wrong. It doesn't conform to the facts. Every day it says "flourishing development," just one adjective.

Razak: Anyway, since we are here now, and we are friends from now on, I leave this matter for the Chairman to consider, and no matter what method, please help us solve the problem.

Chairman: There will always be time in the future.

Razak: Right.

Chairman: We need to establish embassies with each other. Your embassy will come to Beijing to investigate the situation in our country.

Razak: Yes.

Chairman: Communists and communists are not always consistent. For example, we are not consistent with the Soviet Union.

Razak: But I want to be your sincere friend. There should be no obstacles to establishing a true and lasting friendship between our two countries and our two peoples.

Chairman: This issue will not hinder the relationship between our two countries.

Ra: I am very happy to hear you say that. Then, I will leave this question to the Chairman to see if anything can be done to help us. If I encounter trouble in the future, I will come to you again and ask for your help.

Chairman: (laughs) Me, I'm full of illnesses. If I can still get out of bed, and you want to come, I welcome you. (Everyone laughs)