Khieu: We have all the conditions for a protracted war. The people are mentally prepared for this. The economic conditions are also in place—food, fodder, and clothing can all be self-sufficient. The current domestic situation shows that we may be able to achieve victory in a relatively short time.

Chairman: Longer is better—fight it long-term. If it’s a short-term victory, that’s fine too.

Khieu: Yes.

Chairman: How many years have you been fighting?

Prince Sihanouk (hereinafter “Sihanouk”): Four years and one month. We started fighting in March ’70.

Chairman: Prepare for another six years—ten years in all. That’s the thinking, though if it can be resolved in four or three years, that’s fine too.

Sihanouk: Quite right.

Chairman: We fought for 22 years and made many mistakes. Which one is Comrade Ieng Sary? What’s your opinion?

Ieng Sary (hereinafter “Ieng”): I fully agree with Chairman Mao’s view—to be prepared for a prolonged struggle. As Deputy Prime Minister Khieu Samphan said, the conditions for a relatively quick victory are already present.

Chairman: As for the two princes, do you still want to overthrow them, or do you want to unite with them? (The crowd laughs.)

Khieu: Our opinions are completely unanimous—there’s no reason to overthrow them.

Sihanouk: His Excellency the Chairman means in the future. (The crowd laughs.)

Khieu: Uniting is for later, to jointly overthrow imperialism and rebuild a neutral and independent Cambodia.

Chairman: Ah.

Ieng: The Cambodian revolution, carried out with assistance from China and Vietnam, has its own characteristics. Our revolution embraces all social strata—that is, it does not exclude any stratum. We have every reason to unite everyone, and no reason to exclude a single stratum.

Chairman: The Lon Nol clique must be excluded; the two princes must be united. I approve of your policy. And you two princes, don’t go striking at them either (pointing to Ieng Sary and Khieu Samphan). (The crowd laughs.)

Sihanouk: After the liberation of Cambodia, I will withdraw completely from political life. I have publicly stated this many times.

Ieng: We consider Prince Sihanouk a great patriot. He has endured trials and joined the struggle to save the nation. This is not only my personal opinion, but also the opinion of our people back home. We believe the form of Cambodia’s polity is not important; what matters is the content—that there must be genuine democracy. I have said this many times to the Head of State and the Prime Minister. Recently, our people back home have also expressed agreement with this opinion of mine.

Chairman: What are the names of your domestic leaders?

Ieng: Hou Yuon and Hu Nim.

Sihanouk: Also Son Sen—he is the Chief of Staff.

Chairman: I mean the Communist Party.

Sihanouk: These are all communists.

Prime Minister: The Chairman means the top leader.

Chairman: I haven’t met them either.

Sihanouk: And there is Prince Prisala. We are a united front; there are no parties within the united front. The communists in Cambodia have their own characteristics—they have never established a party, merely declaring their support for the front’s political program.

Ieng: Our military operations at home are directed by the National Military Committee.

Sihanouk: There is Saloth Sar, Nuon Chea, and Son Sen.

Ieng: A military committee with collective leadership has been formed. Khieu Samphan is the leader of this committee. Now that he is abroad visiting, it is directed by Son Sen.

Chairman: No need to be so equivocal—just say it straight. These two (pointing to Khieu Samphan and Ieng Sary) represent the Communist Party. Those two (pointing to Sihanouk and Penn Nouth) represent another party. The two parties have united precisely to overthrow the Lon Nol counterrevolutionary party. It’s better not to equivocate—speak the truth. The leaders of the united front are those two (pointing to the two princes), and also him (pointing to Ieng Sary). (To Khieu Samphan) I take it you’re a communist too (the crowd laughs). Don’t keep it from the two princes.

Prime Minister: Both princes know that you are communists, but they are still willing to be friendly with China.

Sihanouk: After the war ends, after liberation, there will be no quarreling between us either. Prince Penn Nouth and I have always been wholeheartedly helping the Cambodian communists consolidate the achievements of the people’s revolution. The political power at home has already been transferred to the people. I have already handed over the government, the administration, the army, and the police. We have already carried out the transformation. After the war ends, even if I wanted to overthrow the Cambodian communists, it would be impossible, because neither the army nor the government is in my hands. I have nothing left. Lon Nol overthrew me precisely because I had handed over the army—including the police, of course. Chairman Kim Il Sung told me that if the army had been in my hands at the time, Lon Nol could not have staged the coup. Whoever has the army holds power. I am now fighting together with the Cambodian communists for our common cause. I have no ambitions for the future. I believe that in the future, power should belong to them—they are young people and should rightfully hold power. Some ask, “Where have all the Sihanoukists in Cambodia gone?” They were originally large in number, but now the proportion of Sihanoukists within the front is too small—there is an imbalance, and the communists have taken charge of all affairs. I reply that the former Sihanoukists all went to support Lon Nol and Nixon and are no longer with me. Therefore, it is entirely normal that in the future, an independent Cambodia that rejects any foreign domination will be led by the communists.

Chairman: That’s good.

Sihanouk: Thank you, Chairman. The Cambodian communists have also been very good to me. They said there is no need to change the form of the state or to change the name to the Republic of Cambodia. The Cambodian nation has its own characteristics and should retain the title of Kingdom. What is important is not the form, but the content. In 1970, Your Excellency already pointed out that the People’s Republic of China is a communist state but supports the Kingdom of Cambodia. What is decisive is the content—China does not support Nguyen Van Thieu’s Republic of South Vietnam, nor does it support Park Chung-hee’s Republic of Korea. The Kingdom of Cambodia is revolutionary. Now, political power rests not in my hands as Prince, but in the hands of the people, practicing genuine democracy and fighting against imperialism and all evil forces. The Cambodian communists fully agree with Chairman Mao’s view—to preserve the orthodox form of the Kingdom that has lasted two thousand years, retaining the Kingdom’s flag and national anthem. In reality, Cambodia has entered a revolutionary era. I am only the Head of State, not someone who holds power. I fully agree that the people should hold power—that is, that the people’s representatives, Khieu Samphan and his group, should hold power. I have formally expressed my view that they should wield power. There will be no internal turmoil in the future—I will not quarrel with them over this.

Chairman: Quarrels will always happen, but don’t let there be a split. Small quarrels, great unity. (The crowd laughs.)

Sihanouk: I fully agree with the Chairman’s view. When I said “quarrel,” I was referring to a serious situation close to civil war.

Chairman: Not like that.

Sihanouk: After the war ends, the task of rebuilding Cambodia will be formidable. We must avoid endless disputes as much as possible. The question of the state system has already been completely resolved, and the Cambodian communists have also publicly expressed their views. We have historically been a Kingdom. I would actually be willing to establish a republic, but as I myself am a prince, I can neither betray my ancestors nor fail the people, so I agree to retain the Kingdom. The form is not important; what is important is the substance—establishing a people’s government. Now all the issues are resolved.

Chairman: You are very generous.

Sihanouk: It is not that I am generous—this is the result of the natural development of the situation since the outbreak of the war, shaped by various factors. All patriotic forces have come together, forming today’s situation. As special envoy Ieng Sary said, the Cambodian revolution is different from other revolutions and has its own characteristics.

Chairman: There are quarrels in our Party as well. Over 50 years, we’ve quarreled ten times. The most recent one was with Lin Biao. Lin Biao is nothing like these two princes here—Lin Biao was rotten to the core!

Your cause will succeed. But I’ve some doubts—for instance, people say 90% of the land (has been liberated). How can there be that much?

Prime Minister: Also 80% of the population—can there really be that much?

Sihanouk: It’s not propaganda—objectively speaking, the liberated areas may actually have a population of about 5.5 million. The areas occupied by Lon Nol—mainly large cities like Phnom Penh—have more than 2 million people; including Battambang, Kompong Cham (though Kompong Cham doesn’t have much population), also Sihanoukville, Kompong Thom, and so on—altogether around 2 million. The people in the liberated areas are all producers, whereas the majority of Lon Nol’s 2 million are consumers. Because of this, President Nixon has to keep increasing aid to Lon Nol. For every year the war continues, the aid doubles—both military and financial aid must increase. Rice, meat, and other supplies are all flown in from the United States. So Lon Nol’s republic is artificially sustained by American imperialism and the Americans.

The difficulty we face in combat is that although China consistently gives us a great deal of aid, transporting military equipment is difficult—we have no navy, air force, or tanks. In this respect, Lon Nol has the advantage. Lon Nol also has heavy artillery. We have some cannons and shells, but they are all captured from the enemy. Then there are the mercenaries—Nixon organized mercenaries from Thailand, Laos, and South Vietnam, all from the American CIA. Now, the Vietnamese brothers no longer help us fight—they must implement the Paris Agreement. So we have to rely entirely on ourselves in the war—only Cambodians are fighting. The Americans say there are still Vietnamese; we say there are not. We want the Vietnamese not to help us fight anymore, but only to provide assistance in transportation.

Chairman: That’s good—self-reliance.

Sihanouk: That is the true state of affairs.

Chairman: In the past, we also had no tanks, no navy, no air force—only an army. We fought for 18 years—against Chiang Kai-shek, against the Japanese. Later, during peacetime, we fought again—in Korea against the Americans, though we sent volunteer troops. Altogether 25 years.

As for me, I studied under Confucius for six years and under the capitalists for seven years. I knew nothing about Marx or Lenin. I wasn’t as progressive as you two princes here (the crowd laughs). Then Chiang Kai-shek started killing people! Out of our 50,000, he killed 10,000 to 20,000. The revolution failed—some surrendered to Chiang Kai-shek, some passively quit, and about 10,000 were left. In the end, Chiang Kai-shek was defeated, so were the Japanese, and so were the Americans.

The October Revolution educated me. It was mainly Chiang Kai-shek’s killings. I was a primary school teacher, a child king (the crowd laughs). The thought of going up the mountain to fight never crossed my mind! But with Chiang Kai-shek killing people, you couldn’t stay in the cities—I was forced to go up Liangshan. After fighting for ten years, we got some experience, and I was no longer a primary school teacher. The Japanese came, and we fought for another eight years. Then we fought Chiang Kai-shek for another four years, and after that, the Americans for three years.

Prime Minister: 25 years.

Chairman: So I’m 81 this year, and over 20 of those years were spent on warfare. Once you start fighting, you learn it. (The crowd laughs.)

Sihanouk: Quite right.

Chairman: If you don’t fight, you can’t understand.

Ieng: In the past we only read the Chairman’s books; now we are grasping it through personal experience.

Chairman: The main thing is experience—doing it yourself. So you need to form a fist, capable of striking into Phnom Penh, of hitting the big cities. I think you’d need roughly 100,000 troops. You must mold your hand into a fist—not guerrilla forces but a regular army.

Khieu: We have a regular army. Compared to the enemy, we are at a disadvantage in weaponry and equipment. To offset this weakness, while taking military action we also carry out mass political work. Now the people’s struggle movement inside Phnom Penh is developing very smoothly.

Ieng: We now have three types of forces: the regular army, local forces, and the militia. The Vietnamese comrades believe that our three armed forces are all developing very rapidly. At present, our regular army has nearly 100,000 men.

Chairman: Mm.

Khieu: Altogether, our regular army, local forces, and militia total about 200,000 people.

EN: The main formations of our army are battalions and regiments; we haven't established divisions yet because the command issues are quite complex. Right now, Vietnamese comrades are helping us solve this problem. Additionally, we now have seven women's battalions, two of which are directly engaged in combat on the northwestern front. These women soldiers are very brave—they often wait until enemy tanks are just 50 meters away before firing their rocket launchers. Sometimes the rocket launchers malfunction, and the enemy tanks roll right over them. As a result, 50 women soldiers were sacrificed in this battle, and another 6 were captured. They publicized this incident, and we verified it—it indeed happened. However, in this campaign, we destroyed six enemy tanks because other battalions cooperated in the operation and encircled those tanks.

Chairman: That's good, very good. We need to establish several corps, each with three divisions, and each division should have 15,000 troops. This kind of army is a school in itself. I never attended university, but I also went through a kind of university—and for over 20 years at that, called the Green Forest University. (All laugh)

Sih: That is the best university of all.

Chairman: It involved military affairs, politics, and conducting investigations and research—studying rural areas, small and medium-sized cities, and the issue of land distribution. Have you distributed land yet?

Qiao: We have already taken measures domestically to relieve farmers of the burden of usury.

Chairman: Reduce rent and interest rates.

Qiao: We haven't distributed land there because there's a lot of virgin land.

Chairman: That's something for a few years later. If the peasants don't get land, their fighting strength won't improve. Unless the landlords siding with Lon Nol are overthrown, the peasants' enthusiasm won't be very high.

Sih: There are no landlords in the liberated areas now; the people's government has distributed the former landlords' property to the peasants. Of course, shortly after the new government was established, the people dealt with a small number of landlords, and the rest fled to Phnom Penh or escaped to France. (All laugh) The same goes for industrialists and big capitalists. As for their property, that of the small industrialists was divided up by the local peasants, while slightly larger enterprises are operated by the state and the people's government.

Chairman: With capitalists, one must be cautious. Only comprador capital can be confiscated; if it's national capital, there's no rush.

Sih: We are in no hurry with patriotic capitalists.

Qiao: The national capitalists stand with us, and the rich peasants among the farmers also stand with us.

Chairman: Not only the rich peasants stand with us; we must also unite with a portion of the small and medium-sized landlords.

Qiao: The patriots. Some landlords even voluntarily handed over their land because they lacked labor.

EN: We even treat compradors differently; we only oppose compradors who work for the Americans, and we try to win over the other compradors to support our struggle. It is precisely because of this that we have been able to purchase medicine and other things.

Chairman: That's good, very good.

Premier: I heard that the French rubber plantations pay taxes to you.

Qiao: We now operate the former rubber plantations ourselves; the tapping is done entirely by our own workers, and then we sell the rubber to the French.

EN: The French buy at a very low price—only 30 riels per kilogram. But we have no choice but to sell, because the output is large, and if unsold, it spoils. So some ships, flying white flags, can enter our liberated areas to do business. Some ships even bring gasoline when they come in.

Chairman: That's good, exchange.

Sih: Yes, barter trade.

EN: But when it comes to actual barter, the French are afraid—they fear Lon Nol.

Qiao: We sometimes get some gasoline and other industrial goods from them, and at the same time try to sell rubber. But the French give us Lon Nol's currency, which constantly depreciates and becomes worthless, so we also struggle with the French in this regard.

Chairman: Oh. Tell them to pay in U.S. dollars.

EN: The French paid in U.S. dollars once in the past, but later, for fear of Lon Nol, they dared not do it again.

Chairman (to EN): On this trip back, how long did you go for?

EN: More than three months. I went to many places—Route 4, Route 5, Route 1, and the former rubber plantations. Now our liberated areas have been linked into a contiguous whole; we can move freely within them. It is an independent territory, with the imperialists conducting aggression from outside. The enemy in the cities is also encircled. In Kompong Thom, due to negligence on our part, the local people suffered some losses for a time.

Sih: Because the battle in Phnom Penh drew away some of our forces, the troops in Kompong Thom came out. Otherwise, the enemy could only huddle passively in the cities.

EN: We mobilized the regular army to deal with the Phnom Penh battlefield.

Qiao: The point is, in Kompong Thom, if our cadres had been more vigilant, they could have protected the people and attacked the harassing enemy through guerrilla activities. But because of our negligence, this wasn't achieved.

Chairman: Mistakes are always made; it's impossible not to make mistakes.

Qiao: The thing is to learn lessons from the mistakes. Later, we used this opportunity to mobilize once again, and this pushed forward the work of our cadres everywhere.

EN: The main reason is that Lon Nol has little artillery and ammunition, so they rarely shell the rear areas of the liberated zones, making our rear somewhat like a peaceful region. This makes it necessary to push the cadres.

Sih: The enemy sometimes competes with us for the populace, but this hasn't brought them any benefit. For example, in the matter of Kompong Thom, they won over some residents, but former producers became consumers, which forced them to ask Nixon for more U.S. dollars.

Chairman: The one who was studying in China before—called Naradipo, right?

Sih: Yes. He is still in Phnom Penh now.

Chairman: Is there any chance he can get out?

Sih: Because he participated in the struggle against U.S. imperialism and Lon Nol, he was sentenced to five years of hard labor. After being imprisoned for more than three years, he developed a mental illness and was released. When my mother left Phnom Penh to come to China, Naradipo's maternal grandmother wouldn't let him go. I still have two children in the liberated zones back home, with Khieu Samphan. One of them died of illness after three years, and one is still there. Another child is in France. The rest are now in China, by my side. On Lon Nol's side, there's now only Naradipo left.

Chairman: All right, let's wrap up this discussion. (To the Premier) You talk now. Keep it brief—don't go into every detail, just cover the main points.

Sih: Your Excellency the Chairman has received us at such length, which we feel deeply honored about. When the news is announced, all the Cambodian people, especially the fighters and cadres engaged in the struggle, will be greatly encouraged. When Khieu Samphan returns home, he will certainly bring back the spirit of this conversation, and the cadres and fighters will be very happy to hear it.

Chairman: It's just for your reference. I still advise you (pointing to Sihanouk) to read a bit of Marx and Lenin.

Sih: I sometimes read some summaries.

Chairman: For example: philosophy, economics, socialism. I always hope you make progress. You two (pointing to the two princes) must not learn from China's example of producing people like Lin Biao. Lon Nol is Lin Biao. Lon Nol is pro-U.S., Lin Biao was pro-Soviet.

Sih: We are pro-Cambodia.

Chairman: Right. The Third World must unite—there are so many people!

Sih: With the greatest confidence, we are firmly following this path.

Chairman: The imperialists are afraid!

Sih: Very true.

Chairman: That's all.

--- Notes

【Khieu Samphan (1931– ), formerly a member of the National Assembly during King Sihanouk’s Sangkum Reastr Niyum period and later Minister of Commerce, left Phnom Penh in 1967 to join the Khmer Rouge forces. From 1970 to 1979, he served as Minister of Defense and Deputy Prime Minister of the Royal Government of National Union of Cambodia, Commander-in-Chief of the Cambodian National Liberation People’s Armed Forces, Chairman of the State Presidium of Democratic Kampuchea, and Prime Minister of the Government of Democratic Kampuchea. In 1982, he became Vice Chairman of the Coalition Government of Democratic Kampuchea in charge of foreign affairs. In 1985, Khieu Samphan nominally replaced Pol Pot as the supreme leader of the Khmer Rouge. Ieng Sary (1925–2013), a senior figure in the Khmer Rouge, was known as the regime’s “Number Three,” having served as Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Democratic Kampuchea regime. On 12 November 2007, he and his wife Ieng Thirith (who served as the Khmer Rouge minister responsible for social affairs) were arrested by Cambodian police and sent to the special tribunal established to address Khmer Rouge historical issues, where they faced charges including war crimes and crimes against humanity.】