(March 25, 1974)





　　[Julius Kambarage Nyerere (1922–1999) was a Tanzanian statesman, diplomat, educator, writer, translator, and political leader. He was the founder of the United Republic of Tanzania and the Tanganyika African National Union—later the Chama Cha Mapinduzi—and served as Tanzania’s first president after independence for over 25 years.]






　　Chairman: Recently there was quite a bit of bickering between Europe and the United States, but now it seems to have subsided. What exactly is going on?

　　Nyerere: I have no idea. You must know far more about it than I do.

　　Chairman: Not really. I don’t understand much of what they’re up to.

　　Nyerere: Who does, anyway?!

　　Chairman: They themselves admit there are difficulties.

　　Nyerere: That’s true, yet they still try hard to project an image of friendliness. At times they seem to be making earnest efforts to appear cordial, while at others they almost appear ready to quarrel. It’s all very confusing. You know much more about these matters than I do; you understand them better.

　　Chairman: Not really. You’re a guest from afar, so I’m asking you.

　　Nyerere: Take the Middle East, for example. What on earth are they trying to accomplish there? I simply don’t know. Both sides claim they desire peace in the region, yet each continues to arm those under its protection. It seems they are not working toward peace but rather arming one side and then the other in the name of achieving it. (Laughter)

　　Chairman: Such peace may be temporary; the future remains uncertain.

　　Nyerere: Do you think the Arab–Israeli conflict can ever be resolved permanently?

　　Chairman: (Shakes head) That’s a tough question! The U.S. Secretary of State is heading to Russia again for talks, saying this round will be more difficult than previous ones.

　　Nyerere: Yet he also asserts that issues raised by America’s adversaries are easier to resolve than those posed by its allies. A British newspaper even reported that his trip to Russia aims to demonstrate how much simpler it is to deal with enemies.

　　Chairman: Did you happen to see his recent press conference?

　　Nyerere: No.

　　Chairman: We should get him a copy.

　　Nyerere: Thank you.

　　Chairman: In essence, talk of disarmament has been around since after World War I, yet it only led to World War II. After World War II, the same rhetoric resurfaced, and here we are decades later—with no real disarmament taking place. (Laughter)

　　Nyerere: As for what ultimately came of it all, I really can’t say. (Laughter)

　　Chairman: Nevertheless, both sides insist they seek peace, and not just any peace, but lasting peace—one that would last a generation. By “generation,” they probably mean roughly half a century, or 50 years. Why not aim for two generations instead? If they did, their arms sales would surely dry up. After all, major powers thrive on profiting from arms exports.

　　Nyerere: Indeed, they make vast sums from such deals. They sell weapons to Arab states in the Middle East and reap enormous profits. Iran purchased heavily from the United States, while Iraq acquired massive quantities from the Soviet Union, as did Algeria. As for Egypt, I’m not sure. (Turning to Foreign Minister Maleseela) Did the Soviet Union ever gift them weapons?

　　Maleseela (hereafter referred to as M): The weapons were purchased.

　　Nyerere: They too bought copious amounts of weaponry from the Soviets. Now they’re reportedly engaged in a special arrangement: trading oil for arms.

　　Chairman: Egypt doesn’t have much oil, though.

　　Nyerere: Currently, Saudi Arabia is helping Egypt procure military equipment. In fact, Saudi Arabia is facilitating Egypt’s acquisition of arms from Western countries.

　　Prime Minister: In the past, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Algeria used to provide funds to Egypt so it could buy weapons from the Soviet Union.

　　Chairman: All in all, we ought to take a closer look at slogans like “lasting peace.”

　　Nyerere: Do you believe such peace is possible?

　　Chairman: Perhaps for a time—but not indefinitely, because the underlying social systems remain unchanged.

　　Nyerere: Some argue that once the arms race reaches a certain point, both sides will realize that victory is unattainable for either party, prompting them to halt the competition and declare, “Let’s stop fighting.” This, they claim, could pave the way for an agreement, since by then both sides would recognize that continuing the arms race would only destroy their respective nations and decide to cease hostilities. Could such a scenario actually unfold? (Laughter)

　　Chairman: I’d say it’s rather difficult—rather difficult, indeed.

　　In short, the world remains unstable. The reason they keep touting peace is simply because it serves their interests. They exploit people’s fear of nuclear war, which is why so many embrace the peace mantra.

　　Especially after World War I, everyone kept talking about peace, only to end up with another global conflict. Now, once again, they’re preaching peace, and who knows what might come of it.

　　Nyerere: We in Southern Africa are striving for independence. Achieving independence here proves far more challenging than in other parts of the continent, largely because the forces opposing us are considerably stronger. Do you have any advice for us in this regard?

　　Chairman: I share your view: we oppose the white-minority regime in South Africa’s domination over African peoples. That, fundamentally, is the core issue. Take Southern Rhodesia, for instance—how many whites were there?

　　Nyerere: About 250,000.

　　Prime Minister: The entire Southern Africa region likely numbers no more than five million.

　　Nyerere: (After consulting with Mr. M) At most a little over four million. South Africa alone has around three million, while Angola, Mozambique, and Rhodesia together may account for another million, totaling just over four million. Meanwhile, Africans in Rhodesia number approximately five million, in South Africa perhaps eighteen million, in Mozambique six to seven million, in Angola slightly fewer than in Mozambique, and in Namibia somewhere between fifty thousand and seventy thousand.

　　Chairman: Change is inevitable.

　　Nyerere: Change will certainly occur. Right now, we are focusing our efforts on resolving the situation in the Portuguese colonies—Mozambique and Angola.

　　Chairman: One is in the southwest, the other in the southeast, isn’t it?

　　Nyerere: Exactly. One borders us directly, while the other connects with Zambia and Zaire.

　　Chairman: Changes in Africa are already happening rapidly enough.

　　Nyerere: Yes, change is underway. However, the situation in Southern Africa is far more arduous and complex.

　　Chairman: You’ve traveled to many countries on this trip.

　　Nyerere: I started in Mauritius and went on to New Zealand and Australia—places I had never visited before. The new governments in Australia and New Zealand are far more sympathetic to our struggle in Southern Africa than their predecessors were. …

	Chairman: Australia is currently governed by a Labor Party administration, and their leader has been here before.
	Nyerere: Twice, in fact.
	In the past, when we clashed with the British government over its arms sales to South Africa, both Australia and New Zealand sided with Britain. But that’s no longer the case. Now that the superpowers have begun vying for influence in the Indian Ocean, Whitlam opposes this, as does Kirk of New Zealand. They both stand against the great powers’ competition in that region.
	Chairman: However, the Americans claim they lack bases in the Indian Ocean.
	Nyerere: That’s correct.
	Chairman: It seems these two major powers are still locked in a struggle for control of the Indian Ocean.
	Nyerere: Yes, they appear determined to fight it out. Do they believe China harbors ambitions to dominate the Indian Ocean?
	Chairman: I haven’t heard anything to that effect. Right now, they seem somewhat wary of the Third World.
	Nyerere: But if the Third World didn’t include China, they wouldn’t feel threatened.
	Chairman: They would still be concerned.
	Nyerere: Without China, the Third World would be nothing more than a paper tiger. (Laughter)
	Chairman: That’s hardly fair! When the countries of the Third World unite, industrialized nations—such as Japan, Europe, and the two superpowers—cannot help but take notice.



Thanks to Ayana Sakura for collecting, entering, and proofreading.