(February 22, 1974)

Chairman: I hope the Third World will unite. The Third World has a large population.

Kaunda: Correct.

Chairman: Who is the First World?

Kaunda: I think it should be the world of the exploiters and imperialists.

Chairman: And the Second World?

Kaunda: It is those who have become revisionists.

Premier: Very accurately said.

Chairman: I'm not so clear. I see the United States and the Soviet Union as the First World. The middle-of-the-roaders, Japan, Europe, Canada, are the Second World. We are the Third World.

Kaunda: I agree with Mr. Chairman's analysis.

Chairman: The United States and the Soviet Union have many atomic bombs and are also relatively rich. The Second World, Europe, Japan, Australia, Canada, do not have that many atomic bombs, nor are they that rich. But they are richer than the Third World. What do you think of this explanation?

Kaunda: Mr. Chairman, your analysis is very precise, extremely accurate.

Chairman: Study it a bit.

Kaunda: I think there is no need to study it, our opinions can reach a consensus, because in my view, this analysis is already very precise.

Chairman: The Third World has a very large population.

Kaunda: Indeed it does.

Chairman: In Asia, apart from Japan, all are the Third World. The whole of Africa is the Third World, Latin America is the Third World.

Chairman: (To the Premier) Premier, how are you?

Premier: I'm alright. I haven't grasped the major issues well.

Chairman: (Laughs) Being given a hard time by people, are you?

Premier: No. I made mistakes myself. Just now in the car I was still saying, I still don't know how to grasp major issues, haven't grasped them well, often grasping minor issues.

Chairman: We are building a railway in Tanzania and your country. Our people have also made some mistakes. How was the matter of the person killed in a collision in Tanzania settled?

Premier: We apologized, paid compensation, and disciplined the people involved. President Nyerere said it wasn't necessary, but it's better this way. While building the railway there (referring to Zambia), there were also incidents of our people killing their people in collisions, but our ambassador said they were all handled on the spot, though we still need to go back and investigate. I don't know if there are still such incidents. We have over 10,000 people there.

Chairman: Also, there must be education. You must tell them (referring to Kaunda).

I am ill, have been ill for two and a half years. I am 81 this year. How old are you?

Kaunda: I am 50 this year.

Chairman: You are a youth, a member of the Children's Corps! As for him (referring to Comrade Wang Hongwen), he is scolded by people as "Children's Corps." You are this year...

Comrade Wang Hongwen: 39.

Chairman: He is 39 this year.

Kaunda: Mr. Chairman, if I may say a fair word about the performance of the Chinese engineering personnel in Zambia, I must say honestly and sincerely that their performance is very good, very good. I am not just being polite. We have had Europeans there before, who stayed for a very, very long time. We have also had Indians, who also stayed for a very long time. But the performance of our Chinese brothers is completely different from theirs; the performance of the Chinese brothers is outstanding. If I did not feel this way, I would not say so in front of you.

Chairman: We are a Communist Party, we should be a bit better! But your words, I don't completely believe them.

Premier: There will always be mistakes, one divides into two.

Chairman: Within the Communist Party, there is also great-power chauvinism. Some people look down on the people of some Third World countries. So they should be educated, they should be educated.

Kaunda: I agree with Mr. Chairman on this point. What I want to say is that when we talk about world problems, it is always in a comparative way. Mr. Chairman just mentioned the issue of the First World, Second World, and Third World. Under this premise, when we discuss the performance of Chinese engineering personnel in Zambia, we cannot but study the problem comparatively based on historical conditions. We cannot but discuss the performance of Chinese engineering personnel in contrast to the performance of people who have come from other countries. (The Chairman raises his teacup and clinks it with the Zambian guests.) Since our two countries established embassies, I remember writing to the Premier only twice, in 1964 and 1965, to raise some complaints. That was because at that time, the Chinese engineering personnel did not understand Zambia's attitude on international issues. Since I have already written two such letters, if there were more matters to complain about, I would inevitably have written again. But it has been 7 or 8 years since then, and I have not written that kind of letter again. This is because since then we have always been satisfied with the performance of the Chinese engineering personnel.

Chairman: If there are matters in the future, you write a letter. I entrust you with educating the Chinese engineering personnel.

Kaunda: Thank you for the honor you give me. I am not worthy, but I am very grateful for the information you have told me.

Chairman: You are a good person. If there is anything wrong, carry out education among the Chinese engineering personnel. And President Nyerere, he should also do so.

Kaunda: I believe I can also speak on behalf of my colleague President Nyerere and say that we are not worthy of this responsibility, but we thank you for giving us such an honor.

Chairman: You have the responsibility to shout! For those working in your country, if people from anywhere in the world do bad things, no matter which country they are from, they should be educated, disciplined, or sent back. Otherwise, those people, they will stick their tails up to the sky. Helping you build a railway, what a big deal.

Premier: He (referring to Kaunda) just mentioned that there are five Central Committee members who would like to come and see the Chairman, is it possible for them to come?

Chairman: Yes, please!

It would be best for Africa to unite. Southern Africa is difficult! Southern Rhodesia, South Africa, South-West Africa, that will be difficult! The central and northern parts can unite slowly. What is your population?

Kaunda: We now have about 5 million, 4.5 to 5 million.

Chairman: Half of Algeria's. What is the population of Tanzania?

Kaunda: About 12 million.

Chairman: You should grow your population.

Kaunda: I completely agree, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman: China's population is too large. Africa's is not yet enough.

What issues are you going to discuss with him (referring to the Premier) this time?

Kaunda: I propose to discuss with the Premier the issue of African unity, the issue of the liberation struggle in Southern Africa, and I can also discuss with the Premier some international issues, for example, the cooperation of the superpowers in the present world on the basis of self-interest and exploitation of others. Under this item, we can also discuss some specific issues, such as the involvement of the great powers in some regions, specifically, their so-called issue of maintaining the Indian Ocean shipping lanes, and their involvement in the Mediterranean, in Southeast Asia, Latin America, and Africa itself. There are also some specific issues related to our region that threaten the peace and security of our Zambia and Zaire. This also relates to the superpowers, and Zambia believes it is precisely they who are carrying out intrigues and plots in this region. In addition to this, we have some bilateral relations issues. In summary, these are the issues I would like to discuss with the Premier. (The Chairman nods)

Chairman: How many days?

Premier: Today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, 3 days. On the evening of the 24th, they will go to other places to see the countryside and some small factories. First to Linxian.

Kaunda: Please allow me to repeat here some of the words I said to the Premier, that is, Zambia is very grateful that you met with our brother President Mobutu when you received him on his visit to your great country. This is very important for the friendship you just mentioned, especially the friendship between Africa and China. We need this kind of unity. Before he came to China, this brother of ours did not understand the real situation in China. But we believe he is a very good person. After hearing what you and the Premier said to him, his view of you changed. We in Zambia are very grateful for your cooperation in this regard. Tanzania is also very grateful.

Chairman: We are a Communist Party, we are meant to help the people. If we do not help the people, it is a betrayal of Marxism. As for you, we hope you will also help the people, countries like Tanzania and Zambia. I advise you to be good to the people!

Kaunda: Correct. What Mr. Chairman says is very important.

Chairman: Without the people, you will fall.

You say a few words for me to hear.

Kaunda: I would like to continue from what you said. We in Zambia believe that the support the People's Republic of China, under your leadership, has given to us in Zambia should not be seen merely as support for Zambia. We should give this support a political interpretation, that is, it should be to support our brothers and sisters in regions that are now unfortunately still under the oppression of colonialism, imperialism, and capitalism. We see this as a matter of principle. When we achieve and consolidate our own national independence, if we do not support the mass struggles in other parts of Africa, that would be self-serving, and would be no different from capitalism, imperialism, colonialism, fascism, racism, and neo-colonialism.

Chairman: Good, well said! Very well, very good!

Kaunda: In our country, our comrades understand the importance of the masses.

We know that at independence we inherited a capitalist system. This system divided the Zambian people into two parts, the so-called "upper class" and "middle class" versus the worker and peasant masses. We are already engaged in a struggle against the remnants of the Zambian exploiting class....

Chairman: You speak well. You cannot be a communist now, if you become a communist, people will all oppose you, but you can read some of Marx's books.