(February 25, 1974)





　　【Houari Boumediene (1925–1978) was an Algerian statesman who served as Chief of Staff during the War of National Liberation. After independence, he became Algeria’s first Minister of Defense. In 1965, he led a bloodless coup that deposed Ben Bella, assuming the posts of Chairman of the Revolutionary Council and Prime Minister, and later became President in 1976. During his presidency, he vigorously developed the economy, pursued a policy of non-alignment, and adopted an anti-American and anti-Zionist stance within the Islamic world. He was a highly influential figure in both the Third World and North Africa.】






　　Chairman: What do you think about the prospects for the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe?

　　Boumediene: The very framing of the European security issue has been wrong from the start. Our view is that security cannot be resolved within narrow confines. As you just mentioned, the Mediterranean does indeed lie between Europe and the Arab world. Therefore, European security is inextricably linked to the Mediterranean, which in turn affects the Middle East and the Arab world.

　　Chairman: Exactly. If Europe is secure while the Arab world remains insecure, and the Mediterranean problem remains unresolved, how can that possibly work?

　　Boumediene: The only solution is for all nations to achieve genuine independence—not only the Arab countries, but also the European ones. It won’t be easy, yet it’s not impossible; the key lies in whether the relevant countries have the will to do so.

　　Chairman: How could dozens of nations possibly reach consensus? Just Europe alone comprises over thirty countries.

　　Boumediene: Everything depends on interests.

　　Chairman: Relying on the two superpowers—the United States and the Soviet Union—wouldn’t work either, would it?

　　Boumediene: We believe that wherever Americans and Soviets are present, disagreements will arise. Of course, I don’t know whether any agreement has already been reached between the highest-level leaders, which is why I’m putting this question to Chairman Mao.

　　Chairman: Agreements may exist, but I don’t consider them very solid. They tend to be temporary and deceptive. At bottom, it’s still a struggle for power.

　　Boumediene: So what should we do in such a situation?

　　Chairman: I think war is inevitable.

　　Boumediene: A thermonuclear war?

　　Chairman: That remains to be seen. All in all, I believe that a conflict will break out at some point. Ultimately, the outcome of this struggle may be decided by force, though not necessarily anytime soon. For now, everyone keeps talking about peace.

　　Boumediene: May I ask Chairman Mao a question? Given this situation, what is China’s attitude?

　　Chairman: Be prepared for war!

　　Boumediene: Our country is too small to confront the major powers.

　　Chairman: You’re not small. You drove the French out, the Vietnamese resolved the American problem, and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea pushed U.S. forces back to the south. Now the United States has established hegemonic positions everywhere, and its need to protect these areas disperses its strength. The Soviet Union also faces numerous challenges: Europe, the Mediterranean, the Arab world, the Middle East…

　　Boumediene: Excuse me for interrupting. Some say there’s also China.

　　Chairman: There’s South Asia, China, Japan, and the U.S. presence in the Pacific. Even the Americans have their own difficulties. I think we should carefully examine current global public opinion and avoid placing blind faith in so-called permanent peace. I’ve often told my French friends to prepare for war. Nearly thirty years have passed since the end of World War II; if another thirty years go by without war, that would make sixty years altogether.

　　Boumediene: Do you therefore believe that wars are inevitably cyclical?

　　Chairman: As long as this social system remains unchanged, war is unavoidable—either inter-state wars or popular revolutions.

　　Boumediene: Despite the vast gap in living standards between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, the USSR has been striving to catch up with America. Could this fact contribute to a rapprochement between the two superpowers?

　　My second question is this: People in the Third World admire China, but they often ask themselves: Faced with the Americans and the Soviets, what role can China actually play?

　　Chairman: Encourage them to stir up trouble around the world. Never believe in lasting peace—or what is sometimes called “peace for a generation.” A generation amounts to sixty years, so by the time the next generation comes along, no one will even mention it anymore.

　　Boumediene: Are you referring to our generation, or hers (pointing to Tang Wensheng)?

　　Chairman: I mean that thirty years have already passed since the end of World War II. Another thirty years would bring us to sixty years.

　　(To Qi Zonghua) Your way of expressing this is quite different from how the British put it. (Referring to the differing ways of saying “sixty” in French and English.)

　　(To Boumediene) I offer this thought to you and your colleagues for consideration. In short, I do not believe in so-called lasting peace. As for whether nuclear weapons will be used, it’s possible they might, or they might not. During World War II, the United States dropped atomic bombs on Japan, but it did not use them again in the Korean War, nor in the Vietnam War. In the Middle East, neither Israel nor Egypt received nuclear weapons from the Americans or the Soviets.

　　One of your early leaders once visited Beijing. What was his name?

　　Prime Minister: Abbas.

　　Boumediene: Abbas was the first prime minister of the provisional government. He is still alive and runs a pharmacy.

　　Prime Minister: He’s quite elderly.

　　Boumediene: Yes, rather advanced in age. He represented a certain stage of the revolution. He was never a socialist and has openly declared as much. He is in good health and continues to work.

　　Chairman: Is there anything else you’d like to discuss today?

　　Prime Minister: We’ve been talking for two hours already, and you’ve done most of the talking.

　　Chairman: You should rest today. Don’t overexert yourself every day.

　　Boumediene: I don’t think I’ll be too tired. I came here simply to pay my respects to you, to have this conversation, to see some old friends and the Chinese people, and to learn about your great achievements. Today’s meeting with you is a truly momentous occasion for me.

　　Chairman: China has made some progress, but it’s not substantial. You can get a general sense of it. (To the Prime Minister) It’s probably about on par with your level.

　　Prime Minister: Proportionally to our populations, our levels are lower.

　　Chairman: Indeed, they’re lower.

　　Boumediene: We lag far behind in many respects and have much to learn from you—not only in material terms, but also in other areas, especially in the experience of the people, which is the most important thing.

　　Chairman: Well, we’ve made plenty of mistakes, and we correct them when we do.

　　Boumediene: Still, your approach is generally commendable.

　　Chairman: Sometimes our methods work well, sometimes not. If we present China in a one-sided manner, emphasizing only its successes, that would be misleading. Of course, portraying China as entirely dark is equally wrong. While the bright side predominates, there are always shadows. Our own staff tends to boast about their achievements and is reluctant to acknowledge their errors, so you should be mindful of that. It’s difficult for us to consistently encourage them to highlight both aspects.

　　Boumediene: I believe that China is the only country in the world capable of carrying out such a revolution within a revolution.

　　Chairman: That’s debatable. Other countries are much the same—always possessing both bright sides and shortcomings.

　　Imperialism exists in this world. From our perspective, Russia too can be termed “social-imperialist,” and this social order inherently breeds war. It’s not that we or the Third World want to wage world war; it’s something beyond human control. Who would have imagined that Hitler almost unified Europe only to fail? Or that the October Revolution emerged in the midst of World War I? And yet China managed to defeat Japan and overthrow Chiang Kai-shek at the very end of World War II.

　　Boumediene: One of the greatest events of recent decades has been China’s rise. We consider China’s emergence as the most significant development of this century. Countries of the Third World place great hopes in China.

　　Chairman: That may be true, but only future historians will be able to judge.

　　Prime Minister: The Chinese Revolution was also influenced by the October Revolution. Today, we are again opposing Soviet revisionist social-imperialism.

　　Boumediene: I regard China as part of the Third World, though I’m not sure whether the Chairman agrees with me. I apologize for asking so many questions.

　　Chairman: I share your view: China belongs to the Third World. In political, economic, and all other respects, China cannot compare with the wealthy, powerful nations; it can only be grouped with relatively poorer countries.

　　Shall we conclude our discussion here today?



Thanks to Ayana Sakura for collecting, entering, and proofreading.