Bulletin on the Substance of Conversations with Kaunda and Boumediene
(February 22 and 25, 1974)

I. Mao Zedong said to Kaunda that he hoped the Third World would unite. The Third World has a large population. He also said: In my view, the United States and the Soviet Union form the First World. The middle elements—Japan, Europe, Australia, Canada—are the Second World. We are the Third World. The United States and the Soviet Union have many atomic bombs and are comparatively richer. The Second World—Europe, Japan, Australia, Canada—does not have as many atomic bombs and is not as rich, but is richer compared to the Third World. The Third World has a very large population. In Asia, except for Japan, all belong to the Third World. The whole of Africa is the Third World. Latin America, too, is the Third World.

To Boumediene he also said: China belongs to the Third World. Because politically, economically, and in all respects, China cannot compare with the rich countries, the big powers, and can only be grouped with some of the poorer countries.

II. When Boumediene asked whether the US and the Soviet Union had reached some kind of agreement and further inquired about the question of war, Mao Zedong said: Agreements may exist, but in my view they are not that solid. They are temporary and at the same time deceptive. In their bones, contention remains primary. I think there will be wars. In short, one day in the future it will inevitably be fought. The result of contention may ultimately be resolved by force, though that
will not happen for the time being. Everyone is talking about peace now. I believe the current world public opinion should be studied, that is, one must not genuinely believe in so-called permanent peace. As long as this social system does not change, war is inevitable. Either it is war between each other, or it is the people rising up in revolution.

There is imperialism in this world. Russia also calls itself social-imperialism, and this system breeds war. It is not that you want to fight a world war, that we want to fight, that the Third World wants to fight a world war, nor is it that the people of these wealthy countries want to fight a world war; this kind of thing is independent of human will. Who would have thought that Hitler would nearly unify Europe, and then fail? Who would have thought that the First World War would produce the October Revolution? At the end of the Second World War, China drove out Japan, and later drove out Chiang Kai-shek.

As for whether atomic weapons will be used, maybe they will, maybe they won’t. In the Second World War, the United States used them against Japan, but later in the Korean War, they did not use them. In the Vietnam War, they did not use them either. In the Middle East, whether Israel or Egypt, the Americans and the Russians did not supply them with atomic weapons.

Boumediene said: Our country is too small, we have no way to deal with the big powers. Mao Zedong said: You are not small. You drove out the French, the Vietnamese also resolved the American problem, and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea pushed the American army to the south as well. Now the United States has grabbed places everywhere; it has to protect these places, so its strength is dispersed. The Soviet Union also has many places to deal with—Europe, the Mediterranean, the Arab world, the Middle East, South Asia, China, Japan, the United States, the United States in the Pacific. Its affairs are not easy to handle either.

Boumediene asked: Facing this situation, what is China’s attitude? Mao Zedong said: Prepare for war! Prepare for them (the US and the Soviet Union) to cause trouble in the world. Absolutely do not believe in lasting peace, or so-called peace for a generation.

III. Mao Zedong said to Kaunda: We are Communists and must help the people. If we do not help the people, that is betraying Marxism. As for you, we hope you also want to help the people. I advise you to be good to the people! Without the people, you will collapse. When Kaunda mentioned supporting the world struggle against imperialism and colonialism and the domestic struggle against the exploiting classes, Mao Zedong
said: You cannot become a communist now; if you become a communist, everyone will oppose you, but you can read a little Marx’s books.

IV. When discussing China’s achievements and opposing great-power chauvinism, Mao Zedong said to Boumediene: China has some achievements, but not great ones. We have made many mistakes; when we make mistakes, we correct them. Sometimes our working methods are better, sometimes not so good. If China is introduced one-sidedly, saying how good it is, that is inappropriate. Of course, saying China is nothing but darkness is also incorrect. The bright side is primary, but sometimes there is this dark side. Our lower-level personnel love to boast about their achievements and do not like to speak about their mistakes, so you should pay attention. Other countries are generally the same; they always have a bright side and also shortcomings.

When Kaunda praised our engineering personnel working on aid projects in Zambia, Mao Zedong said: We are Communists, so we should be a little better! Our people have also made some mistakes; they need education. Within the Communist Party, there is also great-power chauvinism. Some people look down upon the people of some Third World countries, so education is needed. I entrust you with educating China’s engineering personnel, and President Nyerere[1] should do the same. For those people working in your country who do bad deeds, no matter which country they are from, they should be educated, disciplined, or sent back. Otherwise, those people will have their tails up to the sky. Helped you build a railway, how remarkable.

V. When talking with Boumediene, Mao Zedong pointed out: The Mediterranean is intimately related to Europe. If Europe is safe but the Arab world is unsafe, if the Mediterranean question is unresolved, how can that work? How can scores of countries reach unanimity? Europe alone has more than thirty countries. If it is left to two big powers—the United States and the Soviet Union—this also won’t do, will it?

VI. Mao Zedong also said to Kaunda: It would be best for Africa to unify. Southern Africa is difficult! The central and northern parts will slowly unify. And he said: You should develop your population. China’s population is too large; Africa’s population is not yet sufficient.

[1] Nyerere, then President of Tanzania.