Participants: Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai, Henry Kissinger, Winston Lord
Archive: National Archives and Records Administration
URL: https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/memorandum-conversation-between-mao-zedong-zhou-enlai-and-henry-kissinger

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February 21, 1972, 2:50-4:05 p.m.

Present: Chairman Mao Zedong
Premier Zhou Enlai
Dr. Henry A. Kissinger
Winston Lord

Mao: (in Chinese) Welcome.

Kissinger: (in English) Mr. Chairman, it is a great honor for us to be here.

Mao: (in Chinese) I think we should say that it is because we are not acquainted with each other. Actually, I knew about you. When you were only a professor, I was already reading your articles. Therefore, I feel I am acquainted with you.

Kissinger: You read my articles?

Mao: I think I know something about you. It was through analyses that I came to know.

Zhou: He is being modest. He knows much more about you than you know about him. He makes a study of everything.

Mao: Don’t be too optimistic. I am now in the habit of reading documents.

Kissinger: Whatever you say, Mr. Chairman, I am impressed by the fact that you know about me.

Mao: I believe you. I think, on the whole, people like me sound a lot of big cannons (empty talk). That is, we fire a lot of big cannons.

Kissinger: I have studied your writings.

Mao: These writings of mine are nothing. There is nothing instructive in what I wrote.

I haven’t been able to learn English. I am very sorry.

Kissinger: I regret that I didn’t learn Chinese when I was younger.

Mao: I think at the present time we still cannot do without each other.

Kissinger: If our two peoples can live in peace, then the world will be different.

Mao: It is all right to talk like that, but whether it will work or not is something else again. I am not one bit optimistic. I always say that when I have something on my mind.

Zhou: If you are too pessimistic, it would be harmful.

Mao: Harmful. I am harmful. (laughter)

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Mao: As a matter of fact, the issues between us are not that big.

Kissinger: We know that.

Mao: It is the question of Taiwan.

Kissinger: We know that. That is the crucial question.

Mao: I don’t believe that questions like Vietnam, Japan, and Korea are big questions.

Kissinger: So do we.

Mao: It would seem that the whole world is clamoring for a settlement.

Kissinger: We are conscious of that. We are prepared to look at it with an open mind and find a way to settle it peacefully.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, the United States has been misled about China for 20 years. We must find a way of putting our relations on a new basis.

Mao: You know, I am the one who issues the empty talk. That is to say, concerning the world issues, we should find some points in common. It is on these points that both sides can work together.

Kissinger: That is our intention.

Mao: That will do.

Kissinger: For example, if we both look at Japan, is there something we can do jointly?

Mao: That is for you to study. As for us, we are poor and there are too many difficulties for us.

Kissinger: Let me explain. We don’t want to do anything against you.

Mao: I believe that.

Kissinger: That is why I raised the question.

Mao: Do you want to ally yourselves with us to deal with the others?

Kissinger: If China is threatened by the Soviet Union, would the United States be prepared to do something?

Mao: Do you mean that if someone attacks us, you will come to our defense?

Kissinger: That is something we will have to study.

Mao: Politically speaking, that is.

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Kissinger: Exactly.

Mao: That is all right.

Kissinger: For example, we would not allow anyone to undermine you. Is that sufficient?

Mao: What if the Soviet Union insists on occupying our territory?

Kissinger: If the Soviet Union dominates China, we would have to consider what that would mean to us.

Mao: I think that we can get along without them.

Kissinger: That is what we think, too.

Mao: We must be prepared against war. We must be prepared against the Soviet Union in case they launch a large-scale attack.

Kissinger: That is exactly what I wanted to talk about. Are you thinking along these lines?

Mao: I think we should deal with this in a roundabout way. That is, we should deal with the smaller questions first. Later on, we can talk about the big questions.

Kissinger: What smaller questions did you have in mind?

Mao: For example, trade.

Kissinger: We are exploring that possibility.

Mao: For example, some people coming and going.

Kissinger: We are prepared to do that on a reciprocal basis.

Mao: That won’t do. You should send some people over.

Kissinger: We will.

Mao: Your coming here this time is all right.

Kissinger: That was my initiative.

Mao: As you know, our gate is open.

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, I can assure you that this is a beginning which we will carry forward in the spirit you have outlined.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: We won’t play any tricks.

Mao: I don’t think you will. As for those who play tricks, I don’t like them.

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Kissinger: You can trust us on that.

Mao: I am not saying that I trust you entirely. I am saying that I am not under the illusion about you.

Kissinger: Is that good?

Mao: That is good. If we lack illusions about each other, perhaps we can find a common language. Why did you come? Actually, our two countries have no communications with each other.

Kissinger: We cannot accept that situation.

Mao: If you want to come, you may come. However, you must come alone.

Kissinger: I have come alone.

Mao: You know, China is a very poor country. We don’t have much.

Kissinger: We know that. But you have a spirit.

Mao: Are you talking about the spirit of fearing no ghosts?

Kissinger: Exactly.

Mao: As a matter of fact, there are ghosts in the world.

Kissinger: They are in our minds.

Mao: Everything is divided into two. This is the concept.

Kissinger: I agree with that.

Mao: There is the Soviet Union, there is the United States.

Kissinger: We think of it that way, too.

Mao: But at the present time, concerning the question of aggression, there is the question of whether to aggress against others.

Kissinger: Exactly.

Mao: Do you want to aggress against others?

Kissinger: No.

Mao: Who do you think wants to aggress against others?

Kissinger: We think the Soviet Union is acting like an empire.

Mao: Do you feel that the United States is also acting like an empire?

Kissinger: In the past, we have made errors. But we are trying to change that.

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Mao: Concerning the question of Taiwan, I believe that is only a small question.

Kissinger: If that can be settled, other questions would be easier.

Mao: I am referring to the fact that the United States wants to find a place in the middle.

Kissinger: We are not for an independent Taiwan.

Mao: Actually, the issue of Taiwan is not the crucial issue. The issue is the world as a whole.

Kissinger: Exactly. You see, Mr. Chairman, we know very well that Taiwan is a part of China. But we thought a process was necessary.

Mao: That is what they say. I have heard about that.

Kissinger: We cannot say that publicly.

Mao: I understand.

Kissinger: We can only say that peacefully.

Mao: That is all right.

Kissinger: As for the military, we can settle that later.

Mao: All those who occupy our territory, we want them all to go back to their own homes, whether it is Taiwan or any other.

Kissinger: That is our intention.

Mao: As for the Soviet Union, do you think they will attack China?

Kissinger: I don’t think they will get away with it.

Mao: What if they attack?

Kissinger: Then I would give a very strong warning.

Mao: What would you do?

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, I cannot go beyond what I have said.

Mao: Do you want us to fight against them?

Kissinger: Neither of us wants that.

Mao: I don’t want that either.

Kissinger: It is not in our interest.

Mao: That is why I say that you and we together cannot swallow it.

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Kissinger: Exactly.

Mao: As for Japan, that is another question.

Kissinger: We are discussing that with them.

Mao: I don’t trust them.

Kissinger: We will be very careful.

Mao: I am just telling you.

Kissinger: We understand.

Mao: I am not afraid of them.

Kissinger: We will not mislead you.

Mao: I hope so.

Kissinger: We will not do anything behind your back.

Mao: I hope so.

Kissinger: You can rely on that.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, we have taken note of what you said about the smaller issues. We will study them.

Mao: I am not afraid of anything. I am not afraid of the devils.

Kissinger: Or of us?

Mao: I think that dealing with you people is easier.

Kissinger: Is that good?

Mao: I am speaking the truth. As for the Soviet Union, I think they are very difficult to deal with.

Kissinger: We agree with that.

Mao: I think that you people are comparatively frank.

Kissinger: That is our intention.

Mao: Anyone who doesn’t speak frankly I don’t like.

Kissinger: You can rely on us.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, I am very grateful for this conversation.

Mao: All right. If you have nothing to do, why don’t you take a look around?

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Kissinger: I will.

Mao: I am not familiar with Peking.

Kissinger: I will take a look.

Mao: Goodbye.

Kissinger: Goodbye, Mr. Chairman.

Zhou: You are welcome to come again.

Mao: (in English) Goodbye.

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