Participants: Mao Zedong, Henry Kissinger, Zhou Enlai, Wang Hairong, Tang Wensheng
Archive: National Security Archive
URL: https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/memorandum-conversation-between-mao-zedong-and-henry-kissinger-0

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MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION

PARTICIPANTS: Chairman Mao Zedong
Premier Chou En-lai
Dr. Henry A. Kissinger
Miss Wang Hai-jung, Interpreter
Miss Tang Wen-sheng, Interpreter

DATE AND TIME: February 21, 1972
Approximately 2:50 - 4:05 p.m.

PLACE: Chairman Mao's Residence, Chungnanhai, Peking

Kissinger: Chairman, now that I have met you, I can say I have met history.

Mao: (Laughs) I think your saying that is not necessarily the truth. As you know, I am the sort of person who is accustomed to rambling around alone. That is to say, when I talk to foreigners, my English is not very good.

Kissinger: I think your Excellency's words are extraordinarily clear.

Chou: Clear.

Mao: In that case, I can also talk a little English.

Kissinger: I think the Chairman knows English much better than I know Chinese.

Mao: I know very little. I have forgotten almost all of it.

Kissinger: But Chairman, you have inspired a generation.

Mao: (Laughs) I haven't been able to change the world. I've only been able to change a few places in the vicinity of Peking.

Our common old friend, Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, he doesn't approve of this. He says we are communist bandits.

Kissinger: Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek calls you communist bandits. What does the Chairman call Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek?

Mao: We call them Chiang Kai-shek's clique. We say he is a bandit too. We abuse each other.

(To Chou) Are there any Kuomintang representatives here?

Chou: No.

Mao: That's too bad.

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, in America at least, the way we express it when two people have been estranged for a long time and are meeting each other...

Mao: It is like a couple getting divorced.

Kissinger: That is correct. I think we will make it.

Mao: I think that's all right. I have been saying that for years.

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Kissinger: We are prepared to make progress on our relations. The main thing is that one must see the world situation as it is and proceed from there.

Mao: That's right. I like that way of speaking.

Kissinger: So we must ask ourselves -- are there possibilities for certain steps at this time that will express our intentions without settling the ultimate issues.

Mao: What are the ultimate issues?

Kissinger: For example, Taiwan.

Mao: That is not the major issue. The issue is the world.

Kissinger: That is my view exactly.

Mao: I think that for a period of time the world will not be tranquil. And that involves the question of how to deal with the Soviet Union. Actually, these countries like the United States, the Soviet Union, they cannot be at ease.

After the Second World War, they wanted to grab a lot of places. The United States stretched out its hands. But comparatively speaking, they were a little late. For example, in Asia, with the exception of a few places, such as the Philippines, Japan and South Korea, the rest were taken over by others.

Kissinger: I understand.

Mao: Also in Europe.

Kissinger: We were slow in recognizing the real situation.

Mao: You have written about that in your book. You said that you were comparatively isolated.

Kissinger: That is true.

Mao: So I am not happy when I see you people quarreling. I am happier when I see you get together to talk.

Kissinger: After our talks, I will be even more persuasive in promoting this idea.

Mao: We must also tell you that you must be careful about the Soviet Union.

Kissinger: The United States will not do anything to harm the interests of the People's Republic of China.

Mao: Do you want us to fight them?

Kissinger: Absolutely not.

Mao: You mean you want to improve relations with us in order to deal with the Soviet Union?

Kissinger: That is one reason. But even more important, in our judgment, is that the People's Republic of China is playing an increasingly important role in the world, and we do not want an isolated China. We need to have a relationship.

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Mao: In other words, you want to unite with us to deal with the Soviet Union. Is that it?

Kissinger: If China and the United States can look at the world in the same way, can cooperate on common problems, then things will be easier. And if we each look at the world in an opposing way, then there will be dangers.

Mao: All right. I agree with that.

Kissinger: So we must find areas where we can cooperate, where we have different views, we must handle them with discretion.

Mao: Yes. I agree with that.

Kissinger: For example, the question of Taiwan is a difficult one for us. But the Chairman can be confident that it will be handled with discretion.

Mao: We can wait. It can be 100 years.

Kissinger: We can wait too.

Mao: Why is there a need to be in such a hurry? To normalize relations between our two countries, I don't think that if we wait for a while, the sky will fall down. We are not in a hurry.

Why is it that the Soviet Union is so afraid of us? They say we are expansionist. Do you believe that?

Kissinger: Who?

Mao: The Soviet Union.

Kissinger: No, I don't believe it.

Mao: Then you don't believe we will endanger Europe, Japan, and other places.

Kissinger: I definitely don't believe it.

Mao: We are very poor. To speak the truth, we don't have enough to eat. Do you believe that we are in a position to endanger anyone else?

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, I believe you.

Mao: If you are going to deceive us, then go ahead and deceive us.

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, I am not deceiving you.

Mao: If you have any secrets to tell us, you can tell us. Of course, if you don't want to, then don't tell us.

Kissinger: We can discuss anything.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: You know, Mr. Chairman, that I am not a principal decision-maker in these matters, but I can assure you that I will transmit with precision and faithfulness the views of the Chinese leaders to President Nixon.

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Mao: Are you a doctor?

Kissinger: Yes.

Mao: In America, there are some people who are for us and some people who are against us.

Kissinger: That is true.

Mao: There are some people in your delegation who are against us. Isn't that so?

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, all the people in this room are here because they can be trusted to seek a new relationship between our two countries. Of course, we will not agree on everything.

Mao: That's right.

Kissinger: But we will discuss our differences frankly.

Mao: Don't you think that the people who are against us are a little better?

Kissinger: No, I don't think so.

Mao: Why not? People who are against us are more clever.

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, in my experience, the people who agree with us are more clever.

Mao: In your country, there are some people who are pro-Soviet.

Kissinger: There are some.

Mao: There are some people who are pro-American.

Kissinger: Yes.

Mao: The Soviet Union says that we are imperialists.

Kissinger: I must say, Mr. Chairman, that I find that a little hard to believe.

Mao: (Laughs) That's why we are friends.

Kissinger: Exactly.

Mao: They also say that you are all imperialists.

Kissinger: If I were, Mr. Chairman, you would have been in great danger, and there would have been no point in your inviting me.

Mao: (Laughs)

Kissinger: We are ready to discuss all subjects.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: We can discuss Taiwan. We can discuss other parts of Asia. We can discuss our bilateral relations.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: We can discuss the Soviet Union.

Mao: But everywhere you stretch your hands out, you are no good.

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Kissinger: That is why our hands are stretched out to you.

Mao: (Laughs)

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, we know that you are a man of great determination. We know that you are a man who when you decide to do something, you will do it, no matter what the obstacles.

Mao: But I am very pessimistic. I don't believe I can sleep well.

Kissinger: If you say that, Mr. Chairman, then I must be in a state of total despair.

Mao: (Laughs)

Kissinger: I am here because President Nixon has instructed me to explore the possibilities of establishing a new relationship with China. And we can only do it on the basis of mutual respect and equality. We will not do anything that is against the interests of the People's Republic of China.

Mao: Do you believe in God?

Kissinger: In my own way.

Mao: You know, I don't.

Kissinger: You see, Mr. Chairman, I am at a disadvantage.

Mao: That's why I like talking to you. People who believe in God are unfathomable.

Kissinger: But Mr. Chairman, you can deal with me on the assumption that I am practical and cold.

Mao: All right. I like people who are frank.

Kissinger: We will be.

Mao: I think that generally speaking, people like me sound a lot of big cannons. That is to say, we fire a lot of empty cannons. We don't have much to eat.

Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, we study your speeches very carefully.

Mao: These things are nothing. Some of them are contradictory. You shouldn't believe them.

Kissinger: We know which ones to believe.

Mao: You must analyze them.

Kissinger: That is what we are doing.

Mao: I am not afraid to speak frankly to you.

Kissinger: And I assure you that you can rely on my discretion.

Mao: Are you going to stay here for a long time?

Kissinger: I will stay as long as is necessary to make progress.

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Mao: All right. If you want to leave, you can leave. If you want to stay, you can stay.

Kissinger: I would like to stay.

Mao: I am not afraid of you.

Kissinger: And I am not afraid of you, Mr. Chairman.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: And once you make a decision, you carry it out.

Mao: I am not a tiger.

Kissinger: You are more formidable than a tiger.

Mao: (Laughs) I am willing to be friends with you.

Kissinger: So am I.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: We are conscious that we are beginning something that will have great significance for the world.

Mao: I believe that.

Kissinger: And with your guidance and with the President's determination, we will succeed.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: I am very grateful for this opportunity to meet you.

Mao: You have come to China this time. Have you come to any conclusions?

Kissinger: Yes. We must find a way to cooperate.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: And if we can find a way to cooperate, we must proceed step by step.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: And we must be patient and proceed with discretion.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: And we must not be tempted by short-term advantages.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: And we must not be deterred by short-term obstacles.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: And we must have the vision to see the future.

Mao: All right.

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Kissinger: And we must have the courage to carry it out.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: Then we will succeed.

Mao: All right.

Kissinger: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mao: All right. I am not well. I can't talk any more.

Kissinger: I understand.

Mao: If there is anything, you can talk with the Premier.

Kissinger: I look forward to doing that.

Mao: Goodbye.

Kissinger: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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