Participants: Mao Zedong, Richard Nixon, Zhou Enlai, Henry Kissinger, Wang Hairong, Tang Wensheng
Archive: National Archives and Records Administration, Nixon Presidential Materials, NSC Files, Box 634, Country Files, Far East, China, Vol. VI
URL: https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/memorandum-conversation-between-chairman-mao-zedong-and-president-richard-nixon

[Begin Transcript]

[p. 1]

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MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION

PARTICIPANTS: Chairman Mao Zedong
Premier Chou En-lai
President Richard Nixon
Dr. Henry A. Kissinger
Wang Hai-jung, Assistant Minister of Foreign Affairs
Tang Wen-sheng, Interpreter

DATE AND TIME: February 21, 1972
3:00 - 4:05 p.m.

PLACE: Chairman Mao's Residence, Peking

[Begin Conversation]

Mao: I believe our old friend Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek would not approve of this.

(All laugh)

Nixon: I think he probably disapproves of what we are doing today.

Mao: All that is in the past. I think the people who write history eventually will say that only a small number of these past events counted.

Nixon: That is what we think.

Mao: For instance, I voted for you during your election. There are people who disapprove of this.

Nixon: You voted for me?

Mao: Yes, I voted for you. I like rightists. People say you are rightists, that the Republican Party is rightist.

Nixon: I think the important thing is, in the United States at least, that we get rid of the leftists. This is very good.

Mao: (laughs) Things like the [demonstrations] of the "Students for a Democratic Society," or others give me great trouble.

Nixon: Exactly.

Mao: I am comparatively happy when these people on the right come to power.

Nixon: I think what Chairman Mao has said is terribly important for us to hear. In America, you see, we also have some who are called leftists, but these people are really very paternalistic. They want to run everything.

[p. 2]

Mao: Yes, I understand.

Nixon: Our policies, and sometimes our well-intentioned policies, toward the American Indians were very paternalistic. The result was that they were deprived of their initiative, deprived of their sense of worth. And we are trying to change that.

Mao: That is a domestic problem. We do not interfere in the internal affairs of other countries.

Nixon: That is exactly what I wanted to talk about. There are two different kinds of problems. One is the problem between you and us. The other is the problem involving the whole world. For example, Vietnam.

Mao: That is the problem.

Nixon: We want to find a way to settle it. Let us see whether we can find a way to settle it which enables the United States to get out of Vietnam with honor. Now, in so far as that problem affects the Soviet Union, that is your problem.

Mao: (laughs) Don't involve us in that.

Nixon: Frankly, we must consider the interests of the Soviet Union everywhere. Whether we like it or not, they are a superpower, and we have to deal with them.

Mao: Yes, I think that is the situation now.

Nixon: I think our two peoples tonight hold the future of the world in our hands.

Mao: This is too much to say. We are not in a position to decide the fate of the world. And even if we were, we would not want to decide for the world.

Nixon: You see, we have had experience in that. We have been trying to do that for twenty-five years.

Mao: We have been opposing them for twenty-two years.

(Chou laughs)

Nixon: And we have learned that it is not a proper role. To attempt to dominate the world.

Mao: To dominate the world? I don't think it will do.

Nixon: No.

Mao: Because, for instance, take our country. People say that China is very poor. In fact, that is the case. It is not rich. We don't have much. We don't have many obligations.

[p. 3]

Nixon: If I may interrupt, Mr. Chairman, we know that China, in many fields, is not rich, but you have a new spirit. You don't have the drug problem; you don't have many of the problems that plague the Western world.

Mao: That is right. We have little. Some people say that we Chinese like to quarrel. That is because they have not analyzed it. There is a reason for it. Do you know what it is?

Nixon: I would like to hear.

Mao: Because we have been quarreling for a long time. We have never had a day of peace.

Nixon: I see.

Mao: And after a long period of quarreling, we have developed the habit of quarreling.

Nixon: I understand.

Mao: And also, if there are quarrels inside the Communist Party, that is my responsibility.

Nixon: I understand.

Mao: But, on the other hand, now that we have been victorious, we should tell people that we should not quarrel anymore. We should unite.

Nixon: This is what we say to our people. We must find common ground to build a better world.

Mao: Yes.

Nixon: There are great differences between our two governments.

Mao: Yes.

Nixon: But we both have an interest in peace. Is that correct?

Mao: That is possible.

Nixon: And also in security.

Mao: Yes. But as I told Mr. Edgar Snow, there are those who say that you are always making a lot of noise. For instance, flying your planes all over the place.

Nixon: Yes, I understand.

Mao: Dropping bombs all over the place. We disapprove of this. However, these are your affairs. I have talked to him about these things.

Nixon: Yes.

[p. 4]

Mao: Sometimes I just fire off big guns [at Quemoy and Matsu].

Nixon: Yes.

Mao: Just to fire them off.

Nixon: I understand. You know, some of our rightists are so reactionary that they say I should not have come to China.

Mao: What do you think of that?

Nixon: I think they are wrong. That is why I have come.

Mao: (laughs)

Nixon: So that we can find a common ground. I want to say once again that the Chairman's thoughts have moved a nation and have changed the world.

Mao: I haven't been able to change it. I have only been able to change a few places in the vicinity of Peking.

Our common old friend, Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, he only occupies that little island.

Nixon: Well, some people say that he is inflexible.

Mao: Is that what you say?

Nixon: No. I am speaking of what others say.

Mao: He is inflexible. He cannot be blamed. Without flexibility, he would not have been able to hang on for so long.

(Chou laughs)

Nixon: Premier Chou, in our talks yesterday, spoke very frankly about the differences between our two governments.

Mao: Yes.

Nixon: And one of the things that I have been impressed with in reading the Chairman's statements is how brutally frank you are about the difficulties.

Mao: That is generally the case. We speak frankly.

Nixon: We want to find a way so that we can build a world where we can have differences, but where we will not be enemies in war. And as far as our attitude toward Taiwan is concerned, we have stated our position. The Premier has stated yours. And without any question, we do not want Taiwan to be an obstacle to the development of the friendship between our two peoples.

[p. 5]

Mao: That question is not the important one. The question is the world as a whole.

Nixon: You are so right.

Mao: As far as Taiwan is concerned, it will take a hundred years. Ultimately they will not want to have that. It cannot last that long. Ultimately, they will want to come back.

Nixon: Well, Mr. Chairman, in my meetings with the Premier, I was very interested in his analysis of the world situation. I have studied it very carefully.

Mao: All those troublesome questions, I don't want to get into them. I think your Premier is better at those.

Nixon: He was very eloquent.

Mao: I deal with the philosophical questions. That is to say, I voted for you.

Nixon: (laughs) You were very perceptive.

Mao: But I also told you that I am happy when people like you are in power. I am comparatively happy.

Nixon: These next four years, we want to use to build a structure in which we can be sure that we can have a period of peace in the world.

Mao: That depends on the joint efforts of our two sides.

Nixon: Yes.

Mao: There are things that we don't agree on.

Nixon: We must understand those things.

Mao: There are others that we do agree on.

Nixon: Exactly.

Mao: On that point, give me one sentence. That is, let us work together to do those things on which we agree.

Nixon: Let us find common ground to build a world structure in which we can have peace for years to come. And each country can have a system of its own choosing.

Mao: Yes.

Nixon: You see, for example, we must not allow Vietnam or Korea to stand in the way of that.

Mao: That won't do. That is interfering in the affairs of others.

[p. 6]

Nixon: But if we find a common interest--

Mao: That is all right.

Nixon: --in getting out of these wars, then we can do more together.

Mao: That is what we say.

Nixon: We have to find a way to do it.

Mao: I think those people who make trouble, like to make a little noise.

Nixon: They are on both sides.

Mao: That is the situation. So I think your visit this time--I think it is all right.

Nixon: I think so.

Mao: It has opened up our two sides.

Nixon: That is what we want.

Mao: I am not good at talking about these specific things.

Nixon: Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I would like to invite Dr. Kissinger to come in so that he can report to me on the specific conversations that we have had.

Mao: All right.

Nixon: He is very discreet.

Mao: I know. He is the one who is always releasing the balloons.

Nixon: He flies the balloons, yes.

Mao: I approve of that.

Nixon: He is also very tough, and you can be sure that he will tell me when he thinks I am wrong.

Mao: Do you like to hear him talk that way?

Nixon: Yes, I do.

Mao: That is not necessarily the case with us.

Nixon: I understand.

Mao: I say that we should read more books. That is my view.

Nixon: Yes.

Mao: Do you read much?

Nixon: I am a student of history. I read about six books a month.

[p. 7]

Mao: I read more books.

Nixon: Good. What do you read mostly?

Mao: I read mostly Chinese books. Sometimes I read some foreign books.

Nixon: For example?

Mao: For instance, I sometimes read books on philosophy and sometimes books on history. Do you read any Russian books?

Nixon: I read some. I am familiar with some of the Russian leaders. I have read some of their books. But mostly I read history.

Mao: That is what I like to read.

Nixon: You see, I particularly like to read about the lives of great men.

Mao: I don't read the stories of men. I read history.

Nixon: For example, who in Chinese history do you admire most?

Mao: I admire those who had more of the spirit of insubordination. You know, those who opposed the Emperor.

Nixon: Even though they failed?

Mao: Of course they failed. It takes a long time to be successful.

Nixon: I see.

Mao: Are you familiar with "Water Margin?"

Nixon: Of course.

Mao: The whole book is about insubordination.

Nixon: But it never succeeded.

Mao: But it advocated insubordination.

Nixon: I understand.

Mao: But we still don't advocate it now. We don't need to now because we are in power.

Nixon: Yes.

Mao: Have you read "Dream of the Red Chamber?"

Nixon: I have not.

Mao: You should read it.

Nixon: I will read it.

Mao: In the past, we had a man by the name of Kao Kang in our Party. He was the boss of that area. Later on, he wanted to seize power.

[p. 8]

Nixon: Yes.

Mao: And he used the method of trying to win people over. He would give them presents and invite them to dinner.

Nixon: Yes.

Mao: But I am not like that. I don't give dinner.

Nixon: You see, he is very direct.

Mao: I am poor. Why give dinners?

Nixon: He is very frank.

Mao: And also, people don't like to eat my things.

Nixon: They like to hear what you have to say.

Mao: I can talk.

Nixon: I like to hear what you say.

Mao: All right. If you want to talk about specific matters, you can talk to the Premier.

Nixon: I have enjoyed talking with you, Mr. Chairman.

Mao: I have enjoyed talking to you too.

Nixon: We have made a good beginning.

Mao: All right.

Nixon: Thank you.

Mao: Goodbye.

[End Conversation]

[End Transcript]

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