Snow (hereinafter referred to as Snow): I have often thought of writing to you, but this is the
only time I have actually bothered you by writing.
Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): How can it be considered a disturbance? Last
time, in 1965, I told you to come to me. If you had come to me and cursed me, I would have
told you to come and see China's Cultural Revolution, to see the all-round civil war2. I've
learned that phrase myself. Fighting everywhere, dividing people into two factions. Every
factory was divided into two factions, every school was divided into two factions, every
province was divided into two factions, every county was divided into two factions, every
ministry was divided into two factions, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was divided into
two factions. You had to do this. First, there were counter-revolutionaries, and second, there
were capitalist-roaders. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs was in complete chaos. For a month
and a half, we lost control. Power was in the hands of the counter-revolutionaries.
Snow: Was it during the burning of the British Consulate [2]?
Mao: It was that period. July and August 1967. It was terrible. The whole world was in chaos.
This is good. He's been exposed. Otherwise, who would have known?! The majority were
good, but a few were bad. This enemy was called the "May 16th Group" [3]
Snow: There's one thing I'm not quite sure about. Is the Chairman telling me these things for
public publication, as background material, as a conversation between friends, or a
combination of all three?
Mao: Not for publication. As a scholar and researcher, studying social conditions, the future,
and history. I think it's better for you to publish your conversation with Premier Zhou Enlai,
and not the one with me. I've read this article in an Italian magazine [4]. I read it translated
from a foreign language into Chinese.
Snow: Do you think it's well written?
Mao: That's fine. What's the big deal about your mistakes? For example, you say I'm a
personality cult. You Americans are the ones who have the most personality cult! Your
capital is called Washington. The place where your Washington is located is called the
District of Columbia.
Snow: Every state has at least a town called Washington.

2 Mao spoke the phrase “all-round civil war” in English.



Mao: That's disgusting! I support scientific inventions, for example, Darwin, Kant, [5] and
even your American scientists, mainly Morgan [6], who studied primitive society. His books
were very popular with Marx and Engels. That's when we learned about primitive society.
There has to be someone to worship! Are you happy if no one worships you, Snow? Are you
happy if no one reads your articles or books? There has to be some personality cult, and you
have it too.
How can every governor, president, and minister in America survive without a group of
people worshipping them?
I don't like the Democratic Party; I prefer the Republican Party. I welcome Nixon's [7]
presence. Why? He's also deceptive, but to a lesser degree, believe it or not? He often uses
force, but he also uses soft tactics. If he wants to come to Beijing, just send a message and
tell him to do it secretly, without making it public. He can just hop on a plane and come. It
doesn't matter if the talks fail or succeed. Why keep things so tense? But in America, there
are no secrets. A president traveling abroad can't be secretive. If he were to come to China,
he'd definitely brag about it, saying his goal is to get China to retaliate against the Soviet
Union. That's why he doesn't dare to do that yet. Attacking the Soviet Union isn't good for
the United States right now; tackling China isn't good for the United States either.
You say my policy was correct, that I decided not to send troops five years ago, and that's
why Nixon didn't attack China. I say no. We sent one million troops to Korea, called the
Volunteer Army. MacArthur [8] was determined to bomb Manchuria, meaning Northeast
China, but Truman [9] withdrew him. Later, MacArthur became a pacifist. Isn't that strange?
People in the world change this way. There are also those who remain constant, like us two.
I think your visit this time is more in-depth than your previous ones. You've visited factories,
rural areas, and schools—that's studying society.
Snow: China's agriculture is doing very well right now.
Mao: China's agriculture still relies on manual labour, hoes, and oxen.
Snow: This time, I visited some of the communes I visited ten years ago. They've made great
progress.
Mao: There has been some progress, but it's still very backward. Not many people are
literate, and not many women practice birth control.
Snow: It's still quite good, compared to ten or five years ago.
Mao: I agree that there has been some progress; I can't say how much progress there has
been. We need to be cautious.
Snow: But now no one opposes birth control.



Mao: You've been deceived! Rural women, after their first child is a girl, want a boy. Their
second, also a girl, wants a boy again. Their third, also a girl, wants a boy again. ... After
giving birth to nine children in total, all girls, they're already forty-five, so they just give up.
Snow: Yes, but now there are fewer people opposing birth control. Young people don't
oppose it anymore.
Mao: There's a preference for sons over daughters. This custom needs to change. I think you
in the United States may also favour sons over daughters, and it will take time to change.
Snow: There's a large women's liberation movement in the United States right now, and
they're demanding complete equality for men and women.
Mao: You want complete equality, but that's impossible now.
Today, there's no distinction between Chinese and Americans. I place my hopes on the
people of these two countries, and I place my greatest hopes on the American people. First,
Asia, Africa, and Latin America; second, Europe, America, and Oceania.
The United States alone has a population of 200 million. If the Soviet Union fails, I place my
hopes on the American people. I would be delighted if a leading party could emerge in the
United States to carry out the revolution. America's industry is superior to any other country
in the world, and its culture is widespread.
Our current policy is to not allow Americans to come to China. Is this correct? The Ministry
of Foreign Affairs should study this. We should allow the left, centre, and right. Why should
the right be allowed? Nixon, for example, represents the monopoly capitalists. Of course he
should be allowed to come, because the centre and the left can't solve the problem. Right
now, we have to work with Nixon.
He's been writing letters everywhere saying he'd send representatives, but we haven't
published them, keeping it a secret! He's "not interested" in the talks in Warsaw, Poland
[10], and wants to come face to face. So, I said, if Nixon is willing to come, I'm willing to talk
with him. It doesn't matter if the talks succeed or not, if we argue or not, if he comes as a
tourist or as the president. In short, anything is fine. I don't think I'll argue with him.
Criticism is necessary. We also need to engage in self-criticism, which means talking about
our mistakes and shortcomings. For example, our production level is lower than that of the
United States. We don't engage in self-criticism for anything else.
You say China has made great progress, but I say otherwise. There has been some progress.
I'm happy that the American Revolution made progress. I'm not satisfied with China's
progress; I've never been satisfied. Of course, that's not to say there hasn't been any
progress. Compared to 35 years ago, there has been some progress, right? 35 years!
Back then, we were very backward, with only 8,000 troops. The Second and Fourth Front
Armies hadn't yet joined forces. After joining forces, we recruited and only managed to pull



together 25,000 men in Shaanxi and Gansu. I say we travelled 25,000 miles, leaving only
25,000. But that's still more than the 300,000 men and several bases before the Long March.
Policies have changed, and the "Wang Ming" [11] line has been criticized.
Snow: There are two things I'd like to discuss with you. First, regarding Nixon's visit to China.
Can it be understood this way: his visit is unrealistic at the moment, but Nixon's visit is
considered ideal?
Second, regarding Americans visiting China, I'm particularly pleased to be an exception to
this question.
Mao: But you cannot represent the United States; you are not a monopoly capitalist.
Snow: Of course, that's what I was just about to say.
Mao: Nixon wanted to send representatives to China for negotiations. That was his own
initiative, and there are documents proving it. He said he was willing to talk face-to-face in
Beijing or Washington, without letting our Ministry of Foreign Affairs know, nor through the
US State Department. He was very mysterious, asking not to make it public and saying that
such information was highly confidential. What year was his election?
Snow: 1972.
Mao: The US had its general election in 1972. I think Nixon might have sent representatives
in the first half of that year, but he wouldn't come himself. He wanted to negotiate then. He
was reluctant to give up Taiwan. Chiang Kai-shek was still alive. What did Taiwan have to do
with him? Taiwan was created by Truman and Acheson [12], and then there was another
President [13], who also had a hand in that. Then there was Kennedy [14]. Nixon was Vice
President for a long time [15]. He visited Taiwan at that time. He said there were over 10
million people in Taiwan. I said there were over a billion people in Asia and 300 million in
Africa, all rebelling there. What do you think of this world?
Snow: I agree with the Chairman. It's a question of control, a question of the United States
maintaining its power. The combined populations of India, Pakistan, and China are 1.5
billion. Add in Indonesia, Japan, and others, and Asia probably accounts for more than half
the world's population. Japan is rapidly becoming an industrial power and is already the
world's third largest. If China, with such a large population, could catch up with Japan in
production capacity, then the combined production capacity of China and Japan would far
surpass that of the United States and Europe.
Mao: That depends on policy. When Washington of your country started the revolution over
190 years ago, there were only three million people in the United States, yet they were able
to defeat the British Empire, the world's largest industrial nation with a population of nearly
30 million. They only had a few rotten guns, a few guerrillas, and a few militias. Washington
was a big landowner. He got angry and started guerrilla warfare. The British couldn't find the
Americans, and the Americans were hiding in this corner and that corner, swallowing!



swallowing! Hey! From 1775 onwards, after a year of fighting, it was not until 1776 that a
convention of thirteen states was held and Washington was officially elected commander-inchief. [16] The troops were also sparse, not many, and the finances were very difficult. They
issued money, but they defeated the British.
What about us? You saw us back then. We had lost our southern base. There were less than
30,000 people in a place with a population of 1.5 million. Oh, less than that, because Yan'an
hadn't been captured yet. Chiang Kai-shek was incredibly powerful. Later, Marshall helped
him, during the Truman era. Look at the Chinese back then. They were sparsely populated,
with only a little over 20,000 soldiers and Baoan as their base. You went back and saw that
there were only 200 households. Who could have imagined we could occupy the mainland?
Snow: You did.
Mao: Imagination is imagination, but we didn't know if we could occupy it yet. It won't count
until we occupy it. And then the Japanese came back. That's why we say Nixon is good.
Those Japanese are truly good. The Chinese revolution wouldn't have been possible without
their help. I once told this to a Japanese, a capitalist named Nango Saburo. He always said,
"I'm sorry, we invaded you." I said, "No, you helped a lot, Japanese militarism and the
Japanese emperor. You occupied most of China, and the Chinese people all rose up to fight
you. We raised an army of one million and occupied an area with a population of 100
million. Wasn't that all your help?"
There's a journalist in your country named Karnow, who used to be in Hong Kong and is now
in the Soviet Union. He quoted this passage, saying that Americans are stupid and inciting
people around the world to awaken.
Stanford: I reported this statement before, and many people have quoted it.
Mao: That's exactly what we want to promote. Without Chiang Kai-shek, the Japanese, and
the Americans helping Chiang Kai-shek, we couldn't have won.
Snow: When I met Sihanouk [17] a few days ago, Sihanouk told me that Nixon was a good
agent of Mao Zedong.
Mao: I like this kind of person, the most reactionary person in the world. I don't like the
Social Democratic Party or revisionism. Revisionism has its deceptive side, and the current
West German government also has its deceptive side.
Snow: The deeper Nixon gets bogged down in South Asia, the more he will mobilize the
people to rise against him.
Mao: Good! Nixon is good! I can talk to him, and we won't argue.
Snow: I don't know Nixon, but if I met him, could I say...?



Mao: You just say, he's a good man! The world's first good man! This Brezhnev [18] is not
good, and Brandt [19] wasn't much better either.
Snow: I remember you said, "National struggle, in the final analysis, is a question of class
struggle."
Mao: That's right. What is a nation? It consists of two groups of people. One group is the
upper class, the exploiting class, the minority. This group of people can speak and organize
the government, but they cannot fight, farm, or work in factories. More than 90% are
workers, peasants, and the petty bourgeoisie. Without these people, there can be no nation.
Snow: I would like to briefly introduce my experience to you as background material, which
may be of interest to you. ...[20]
My experience can be said to be typical among my generation, that is, I studied and worked
at the same time.
Mao: But your worldview is still bourgeois, not proletarian. I also had a bourgeois worldview
for a long time. Initially, I believed in Confucius, then in Kant's idealism. I knew nothing
about Marx. I believed in Washington and Napoleon. Chiang Kai-shek ultimately helped,
killing people in 1927. Of course, in 1921, we recruited seventy intellectuals [21] to form the
Communist Party. When the Communist Party was formed, there were only twelve
representatives, and the seventy elected twelve as representatives. Of these twelve, several
sacrificed their lives, died, quit, or became counter-revolutionaries. Now, only two remain:
Dong Biwu [22] and Mao Zedong.
Snow: I think your emphasis on combining education with productive labour is very
important.
Mao: We have no university professors, middle school teachers, or elementary school
teachers. We use only Kuomintang members, and they rule the country. The Cultural
Revolution started with them. Only one, two, or three percent were dismissed, and they
were left there to be supported when they grew old and could no longer work. The rest
were retained, but they should be integrated with labour, and progressed gradually. Don't
rush, force, or impose anything. I don't approve of that lecture method. You, the teacher,
write the notes and give them to the students. Then, if you don't understand, you can ask
the teacher in class. Students are often very naughty. If the students come up with a
hundred questions, and the teacher can answer fifty, it's considered quite good. What about
the remaining fifty? Just say, "I don't understand, just like you." Then everyone studies—you
study, I study. Then say, "get out - class dismissed!" See, how wonderful! That's how I teach.
No notes. If you want to sleep, you doze off. If you want to run, you leave. This nap is really
good. Instead of sitting there seriously and not being able to listen, it's better to maintain
your energy.



Mao: You're nothing special as a journalist! Why bother being a journalist? What kind of
books can you write, what kind of fame can you achieve? Your "Red Star Over China" is
famous. There's another book by someone who can compare to your "Red Star Over China."
It was written by a sailor who landed in Guangzhou at the time and witnessed the Japanese
invasion. He probably didn't go to the liberated areas. His name is Belden3. (Jack Belden
[23]).
Snow: Oh, yes, I know that guy. He's still around.
Mao: What about Latimore [24]?
Snow: He's still around. He used to work at Johns Hopkins University. He was persecuted
during the McCarthy [25] era and later. He now lives in England.
Snow: Two years ago, when I visited the Far East, I met with scholars and China experts. I
kept asking them if any of them had ever written an analysis of "Hai Rui Dismissed from
Office" [26] and pointed out its dual meaning. I didn't find any of them who had ever
grasped the significance of the article at the time. Therefore, they were unable to foresee
the Cultural Revolution, and they were unable to understand it after it began.
Mao: It was the article "Hai Rui Dismissed from Office" [27] that struck a chord with our
enemies. At the time, organizations in Beijing couldn't publish articles, saying Wu Han was a
historian and untouchable! We approached the first person, but he didn't dare write; the
second, but he didn't dare write; the third, but he still didn't dare write. Later, a writing team
was organized in Shanghai, headed by Yao Wenyuan. The article came out, but Beijing
wouldn't publish it. I was in Shanghai at the time, and I said, "Publish a pamphlet and see
what they do!" Only one newspaper in Beijing published it—the Liberation Army Daily.
Neither the People's Daily nor the Beijing Daily. Later, it was reprinted across the country, in
every province and city. Only one province didn't: my own province—Hunan.
Snow: Was the Hunan newspaper's refusal to publish it due to Liu Shaoqi's obstruction?
Mao: That's not the case. The Propaganda Minister of the Hunan Provincial Committee was
extremely right-wing. The Propaganda Department, the Organization Department, the
Provincial Committee—they were all destroyed. But we can't draw conclusions based on just
one thing. Several figures from Hunan Province have emerged. The first is Hua Guofeng [28],
the current First Secretary of the Hunan Provincial Committee, a veteran; the second is Li
Ruishan, the current head of the Shaanxi Provincial Revolutionary Committee, who was also
a Hunan Provincial Party Secretary; and the third is Hu Jizong, the second-in-command of
Gansu Province.
Snow: Do you think China and the United States will establish diplomatic relations?

3 Mao pronounced Belden’s name in English.



Mao: China and the United States will eventually establish diplomatic relations. Are we going
to avoid diplomatic relations for a hundred years? We haven't occupied your Long Island.
Snow: I have a question for you: When did you clearly feel the need to remove Liu Shaoqi
from the political arena?
Mao: It was quite early. In January 1965, the "Twenty-Three Articles" [29] were published.
The first of the "Twenty-Three Articles" stated that the goal of the "Four Cleanups" campaign
was to purge those in power within the Party who were taking the capitalist road. Liu Shaoqi
immediately objected. Before that, his black book on "Self-cultivation" [30] hadn't touched
on imperialism, feudalism, or the Kuomintang.
Snow: Is it the new edition?
Mao: Old version. They say we shouldn't seize power. The Communist Party doesn't want to
seize power. What's the point of being a Communist Party if we don't seize power?!
Snow: So, did you feel the need for a revolution at that time?
Mao: Yes. In October 1965, "Hai Rui Dismissed from Office" was criticized. On May 16, 1966,
the enlarged meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee decided to launch the
Cultural Revolution. In August 1966, the Eleventh Plenary Session of the Central Committee
was held, and the "Sixteen Articles" [31] were formulated.
Snow: Did Liu Shaoqi also oppose the "Sixteen Articles"?
Mao: He was vague. Because I had already published that big-character poster, he was
furious. He was actually firmly opposed.
Snow: Is that the big-character poster, "Bombard the Headquarters" [32]?
Mao: That one.
Snow: He also knew he was the headquarters.
Mao: At that time, I had no control over the Party's power, the power of propaganda work,
the power of the provincial Party committees, and the power of various localities, such as
the power of the Beijing Municipal Party Committee. So at that time, I said there was no
such thing as a cult of personality, but a certain amount of cult of personality was necessary.
It's different now. The worship is excessive, with a lot of formalism. For example, the "Four
Greats"—Great Teacher, Great Leader, Great Supreme Commander, Great Helmsman4—are
disgusting! One day, all of them will be eliminated, leaving only "Teacher." Because I've
always been a teacher, and I still am. All others will be resigned.
Snow: Was it necessary to do this in the past?

4 Mao said each of these “greats” in English.



Mao: In the past few years, there was a need for some kind of personality cult. Now it's no
longer necessary; it needs to cool down.
Snow: Sometimes I wonder if those who go too far are sincere.
Mao: There are three kinds: one is genuine, the second is following the crowd, "You all
should shout 'Long live!'" The third is fake. You shouldn't believe that.
Snow: I heard that at a plenary session of the Central Committee[33] held just before the
march into the city, a resolution was passed prohibiting the naming of cities, streets, villages,
etc. after Party leaders.
Mao: That doesn't exist now. There are no streets, cities, or places named after people. But
they use other forms: slogans, portraits, and plaster statues. They've been doing this for the
past few years. Whenever the Red Guards start making noise and storming the streets, they
have to do it. How could they not do it? They'd say you're anti-Mao5! Didn't your President
Nixon like law and order? He liked law, that order6. Our current constitution should include a
clause about strikes. In addition to the "four great freedoms," we should also include strikes.
This way, we can combat bureaucracy. This clause is essential for combating bureaucracy.
Snow: Should strikes be included in the new constitution?
Mao: A new constitution must be written.
That's why I say China is very backward. Two things, both advanced and backward, are in a
struggle.
Snow: Regarding what people call the cult of personality around Mao Zedong, my
understanding is that the power of the nation must be personified by an individual. During
this period, during the Cultural Revolution, Mao Zedong and his teachings must serve as the
symbol of everything until the struggle ends.
Chairman Mao: This was to oppose Liu Shaoqi. Previously, it was to oppose Chiang Kai-shek,
and later, to oppose Liu Shaoqi, he still promoted Chiang Kai-shek. We also have to establish
someone. Promote Chen Duxiu [34]? No; promote Qu Qiubai, no; promote Li Lisan, no;
promote Wang Ming, no. So what should we do? We have to establish someone to
overthrow Wang Ming. Unless Wang Ming is overthrown, the Chinese revolution cannot
triumph. Our party is in such trouble.
Snow: What do you think of the party now?
Mao: Not very well.
Snow: Is it getting any better?

5 Mao said “anti-Mao” in English.
6 Mao said the phrase “law and order”, and the words “law” and “order” in English.



Chairman Mao: Better. If you say it's better, I agree. If you say China is so good, I don't agree.
Two things were fighting each other: one progressive, the other backward. There were two
things during the Cultural Revolution that I strongly disapproved of. One was lying. They said,
"We want cultural struggle, not physical struggle," but in reality, they kicked someone and
then pulled their foot back. They asked, "Why did you kick me?" They replied, "I didn't kick
you. Look, isn't my foot right here?" They were lying. Later, it escalated into fighting, initially
with spears, then rifles and mortars. So when foreigners talked about China in chaos, it
wasn't lies; it was real: physical struggle.
The second thing that really upset me was the mistreatment of captured prisoners. The Red
Army and the People's Liberation Army weren't like that. They treated prisoners well. They
didn't beat them, scold them, search their pockets, and even gave them travel expenses to
go home. They didn't execute any officers, not even officers as high as generals. They were
disarmed, whether they were soldiers or officers, high-ranking or low-ranking, so why would
you still mistreat them? We've always established this rule. Therefore, under our influence,
many soldiers came over in a week and joined our forces in battle.
Mao: When you return to the United States, I hope you'll conduct some social research.
Survey workers, farmers, students, intellectuals, capitalists, and all walks of life. Observe
their lives and their emotions. To survey a factory—I mean a medium-sized one, with about
a thousand employees—would a week be enough?
Snow: Yes.
Mao: If you survey two factories, that'll only take two weeks. To survey a farm, a week would
also be enough, right?
Snow: Yes.
Mao: Investigating two farms also takes two weeks. A total of four weeks only adds up to
one month. Investigating two schools—a middle school and a university—takes half a
month. Even a single investigation doesn't guarantee true understanding. First, others may
not tell the truth. Second, you may not fully grasp the situation you learn. This is my
experience from decades of investigation and research. It's not easy for an intellectual to talk
to workers and peasants. Who would talk to you? They're afraid you'd pry into their secrets.
Making friends with workers and peasants is not easy. People like you find it easier to make
friends with intellectuals, petty bureaucrats, and the petty bourgeoisie than with workers
and peasants. If you don't believe me, try it. If you're determined, try it!
Mao: Go everywhere, travel between the United States, Europe, and China. From now on,
spend one-third of the year in the United States, one-third in Europe, and one-third in China.
Live everywhere, and make the world your home.
Snow: But I still have to work.
Mao: I think studying America, China, and Europe is work.



Snow: I will try, but the outcome is hard to predict. What's happening in China has a
significant impact on the United States. Today, the United States is in even greater turmoil,
primarily due to the social and political instability caused by the Vietnam War. This is
because today's young people are better educated than their predecessors, and the
country's science is developing. The gap between the policies implemented by the
administration and its rhetoric is becoming increasingly apparent, leading to a loss of trust
among the majority of the public in the administration they believe in.
Mao: It's simply not telling the truth. If someone doesn't tell the truth, they can't build trust.
Who would trust you? It's the same between friends. For example, from the time we first
met thirty-five years ago until now, nothing has changed. We've always treated each other as
friends. There's a bit of bureaucracy, but I'm self-critical.
Stalin: Do you intend to resolve your problems with Russia?
Mao: Russia's problems must be resolved. All the problems of the world must be resolved!
Stam: That's right.
Mao: Both sides must agree to it; it won't work if only one side is willing.
Stam: What exactly is Russia trying to do?
Mao: I don't quite understand, and I can't figure it out.
Stam: Is Russia afraid of China?
Mao: What do they have to fear China? China's atomic bomb is only this big (Chairman
gestures with his little finger), Russia's atomic bomb is this big (Chairman gestures with his
thumb), and America's atomic bomb is this big (Chairman gestures with his other thumb).
The two of them combined are this big (Chairman puts his thumbs together). Look.
Snow: If we look at it from a long-term perspective, are they afraid?
Mao: I heard they are a little afraid. A man with a few mice in his house is a little afraid,
afraid they'll eat his candy. With a few mice scurrying around in the house, he can't sleep,
and it's disturbing. They're a little panicked. For example, they're afraid of China digging air-raid shelters. What's there to be afraid of? We dig shelters to keep you out. I'm just digging
holes, not fighting back. They're also afraid of China criticizing their revisionism. So who
criticized us first? Who fired the first shot in this war? They called us dogmatists, and we
called them revisionist. We're not afraid of them calling us dogmatists. We published their
articles criticizing our dogmatism in our newspapers. They didn't dare publish our articles
criticizing them; they were afraid. They say I'm dogmatist, and they always have a reason.
Dogmatism is anti-Marxist-Leninist, and anything anti-Marxist-Leninist must be criticized. But
they didn't. They later asked the Cuban delegation to mediate, saying they wanted to stop
the public debate. They then asked Romania to mediate, demanding we stop the public
debate. I said no, we'll have to debate for ten thousand years. Later, when Kosygin [35] came



to Beijing, I met him. I said, "You say we are dogmatists, fine. But why did you get rid of
Khrushchev, the one who started it? You wrote in your resolution that he was "Comrade
Khrushchev [36], who creatively developed Marxism-Leninism." Why would you reject
someone who developed Marxism-Leninism?" I couldn't understand. If you didn't want him,
could we invite him? Invite him to Peking University as a professor to teach that developed
Marxism-Leninism? He refused again. I said, "But you are the Premier, the Premier of the
Soviet Union. Our debate will last for ten thousand years. I am making concessions for your
sake. A concession is a big one. It's fine if it doesn't decrease, but if it decreases, it will last
for a thousand years. A concession will last for a thousand years!" He told me that the result
of that conversation was good.
These Russians look down on the Chinese and people from many other countries. They think
everyone will listen to them if they say anything. But who knows, there are some who won't
listen, and one of them is you.
Snow: To clarify my own thoughts, I would like to briefly discuss some of my thoughts on the
Cultural Revolution. ...[37]Mao: The conflict between urban and rural residents you
mentioned isn't serious. It's basically a question of revisionism and anti-revisionism. To
practice revisionism requires compromise with the Soviet Union.
As for the development of capitalist factors in both urban and rural areas, that's bound to
happen, and it's still happening.
China has a large population of poor peasants, accounting for 60 to 70 percent. We also
need to add the middle peasants, with whom we must unite. As for the well-to-do middle
peasants, they are generating capitalism every day, every hour, every moment. This is what
Lenin said, not something we invented. China is a vast ocean of the petty bourgeoisie, with
so many peasants. The working class is smaller and younger. This is also why the working
class is so good. In your countries, revolution is also difficult; monopoly capital is powerful,
and its propaganda machine is vast. China is different. For example, in terms of religion,
there are very few true believers. Among the hundreds of millions of people, there are only
800,000 to 900,000 Christians, 20 to 30 million Catholics, and nearly 10 million Muslims. The
rest believe in the Dragon King; they believe if they are sick, but not if they are healthy; they
believe if they don't have children, but not if they do.
Snow: Have you finished answering the questions about the Cultural Revolution today?
Mao: I have answered some of the questions about the Cultural Revolution. Please come
back next year. If you are willing, you are welcome to come.
Snow: Has the grain problem been basically solved?
Mao: In the past, it was called "transferring grain from the south to the north," but now the
provinces and cities are gradually resolving the issue. Another issue is shipping coal from the
north to the south. They said Hubei, Hunan, Guangdong, Fujian, Zhejiang, and southern



Jiangsu didn't have coal, so it had to be shipped from the north. Now they all have it. It's
about two kinds of enthusiasm: central enthusiasm and local enthusiasm. We need both! Let
them do it themselves. The central government shouldn't take over everything. Find it
yourself! We searched everywhere, in every commune, every county, every province. After
searching everywhere, we finally found coal and oil. So, it's not okay to keep everything in
my hands. I can't manage so much! We should learn from your American approach and
divide it among the fifty states.
Snow: I've noticed a big change this time.
Mao: It's about these two initiatives: one at the central level and one at the local level!
I've been talking about this for over a decade, but they just won't listen. What can I do? Now
they're listening. Things in the world are like this: they have to take detours, like an S-shaped
path.
Snow: Sometimes you have to take an S-shaped path, and then try to break through the
circle and start over.
Mao: In short, what I've said to you over and over again is that the basic relationship
between us has not changed from 35 years ago to now. I don't lie to you, and I assume you
don't lie to me either.

[1] This is the summary of Mao Zedong's conversation with American writer and friend Edgar
Snow on December 18, 1970. This summary was sent to Mao Zedong for review, and he
instructed, "Distribute as is." On May 31, 1971, the Central Committee of the Communist
Party of China printed and distributed this summary, stating, "Please distribute this
document to grassroots Party branches and orally communicate it to all Party members.
They should organize careful study and correctly grasp the spirit of the Chairman's speech."
This article was published based on a Central Committee document. Some text has been
abridged during the compilation process.
[2] On the evening of August 22, 1970, the "Anti-Imperialist and Anti-Revisionist Liaison
Station" decided to hold a "denunciation meeting" and a demonstration in front of the
British Consulate in China. They then stormed the British Consulate in China and set fire to
the consulate's office building and vehicles. On March 2, 1971, Zhou Enlai publicly
apologized to the British for the "consulate burning incident."
[3] The "May 16" group was originally a small reactionary organization in Beijing called the
"Capital May 16 Red Guards." They exploited the publication of the "May 16 Notice" in
newspapers in May 1967 and, under the guise of implementing it, established a secret
organization and carried out clandestine activities, distributing and posting reactionary
leaflets attacking Zhou Enlai. This reactionary organization was quickly uncovered, and its
leaders arrested by public security authorities. The issue was largely resolved, but in 1968, a



special Central Leading Group for the "May 16" investigation, headed by Chen Boda, was
established. During the investigation, many cadres and members of the public who opposed
Lin Biao and Jiang Qing's group were labelled "May 16" elements. In some localities and
units, the two factions accused each other of being "May 16" elements. The investigation
campaign escalated significantly, creating a chaotic situation and ultimately came to nothing.
[4] This refers to Snow's "Conversations with Zhou Enlai" (international section), published in
the Italian magazine "Times" on December 13, 1970.
[5] Darwin, a British biologist, proposed the theory of evolution in works such as "The Origin
of Species," explaining the evolution of organisms and the origin of humanity. Kant, a
German philosopher and founder of German classical idealism, proposed the nebular
hypothesis regarding the origin of the solar system in works such as "General Natural History
and Theory of the Cosmos," viewing the formation of the solar system as a process of the
movement and development of matter according to objective laws.
[6] Morgan was an American ethnologist and historian of primitive society. In Ancient
Society, he first discussed the clan as the basic organizational structure of primitive society,
the laws governing the existence and development of matrilineal and patrilineal clans, and
the historical evolution of marriage and family forms. He also divided human history into
three eras: savagery, barbarism, and civilization. Marx excerpted and commented on the
book in detail. Engels also cited extensive material from Morgan in The Origins of the Family,
Private Property, and the State, expounding on his research and praising him for "opening up
a new era in the study of primitive history."
[7] Nixon, a Republican and then-President of the United States, visited China for the first
time in February 1972. During his visit, he held negotiations with China on Sino-US relations,
leading to the issuance of the Sino-US Joint Communiqué in Shanghai, marking the
beginning of the normalization of Sino-US relations.
[8] MacArthur was appointed Commander-in-Chief of the United Nations Forces in June
1950, commanding the Korean War and actively promoting attacks on China. He was
dismissed from all military posts in April 1951, retaining only the rank of five-star general.
[9] Truman, served as President of the United States from 1945 to 1953.
[10] Refers to the Sino-US ambassadorial talks. On April 23, 1955, Zhou Enlai declared at the
meeting of the heads of delegations of the eight nations at the Asian-African Conference
that the Chinese government was willing to negotiate with the US government to discuss
easing tensions in the Far East, particularly in the Taiwan region. On July 25 of the same year,
China and the US reached an agreement on ambassadorial talks, with the first meeting held
in Geneva on August 1. However, due to a lack of sincerity on the US side, the talks were
suspended. After the shelling of Kinmen in August 1958, the US government publicly stated
its willingness to resume the talks, and the two sides resumed their meeting in Warsaw,



Poland, on January 5. By February 20, 1970, a total of 136 ambassadorial-level talks had
been held between China and the US. Due to the US's insistence on interfering in China's
internal affairs, the talks made no progress in easing or eliminating tensions in the Taiwan
region.
[11] Wang Ming, also known as Chen Shaoyu, was the primary representative of "Left"
adventurist errors within the CCP from the Fourth Plenary Session of the Sixth Central
Committee of the Communist Party of China (January 1931) to the Zunyi Conference
(January 1935). This Wang Ming line, which dominated the Party for four years, ignored the
reality of the enemy's strength and our weakness, misjudged the revolutionary situation,
and implemented a series of "Left" adventurist policies and measures in politics, military
affairs, and urban and rural work. To enforce this erroneous line, he used me as the core of
the organization and adopted sectarian tactics, waging "ruthless struggle" and "merciless
attacks" against comrades who disagreed. Under the guidance of this erroneous line, the
Central Red Army failed to crush the enemy's fifth "encirclement and suppression" campaign
and was forced to implement a strategic shift. Wang Ming's line caused severe losses to the
revolutionary base areas and the work in the white areas led by the Party.
[12] Acheson, who served as U.S. Secretary of State from 1949 to 1953, worked with Truman
to formulate a policy of non-recognition of China and aid to Taiwan's pro-democracy leader
Chiang Kai-shek.
[13] Eisenhower, President of the United States from 1953 to 1961.
[14] Kennedy was elected President of the United States in November 1960 and was
assassinated in 1963.
[15] Nixon served two terms as Vice President of the United States from 1953 to 1961.
[16] The year Mao Zedong cited in his statement is inaccurate. The American Revolutionary
War broke out in 1775. In May of that year, the Second Continental Congress, attended by 13
North American states, adopted a "Declaration of Armed Revolution" against Britain,
reorganizing the North American militia into the Continental Army. In June, Washington was
unanimously elected Commander-in-Chief of the Continental Army.
[17] Sihanouk was elected Cambodian head of state in 1960. Following Lon Nol's coup in
1970, Sihanouk established the National United Front of Cambodia and the Royal
Government of National Unity in Beijing, serving as its leader.
[18] Brezhnev, then General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of
the Soviet Union.
[19] Willy Brandt was then the chairman of the Social Democratic Party of Germany and the
Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany.



[20] This is the original text in the document of the Central Committee of the Communist
Party of China.
[21] When the First National Congress of the Communist Party of China was held, there were
only more than 50 party members.
[22] Dong Biwu was then a member of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee
and Vice President of the People's Republic of China.
[23] Jack Belden, a progressive American journalist, arrived in China as a sailor in 1933 and
returned nine years later. He visited China for the second time in December 1946. After
conducting extensive and in-depth research in the liberated areas of North China, he wrote
the book, China Shocks the World, which introduced the Chinese revolution to the world.
[24] John Lattimore was an American orientalist. In July 1941, he was sent to China as the
personal representative of US President Roosevelt. He was recalled to the United States in
1942 and served as director of the China Department of the US Information Agency. He later
became dean of the Page School of International Studies at Johns Hopkins University. He was
impeached by Senator McCarthy in 1952. In 1963, he went to the UK and became professor
of Chinese at the University of Leeds.
[25] McCarthy, a U.S. Senator since 1951, was renowned for his anti-communism. From 1951
to 1954, he manipulated the Senate's Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations and used
other agencies to conduct "loyalty investigations" against numerous individuals and
organizations, employing illegal interrogation techniques, persecuting democratic and
progressive forces, and instilling terror in the United States.
[26] Hai Rui Dismissed from Office is a newly adapted historical play written by Wu Han, a
historian and deputy mayor of Beijing. It was completed in late 1960 and began performing
in early 1961.
[27] This refers to the article "Comment on the New Historical Drama 'Hai Rui Dismissed
from Office,'" secretly planned by Jiang Qing and Zhang Chunqiao in Shanghai in early 1965
and later penned by Yao Wenyuan. It was published in the Shanghai Wenhui Daily on
November 10, 1965. Beijing's major newspapers initially avoided reprinting it, but the
People's Daily did so on November 30, adding a note revised by Zhou Enlai, emphasizing that
the discussion was focused on academic issues. However, under the manipulation of Jiang
Qing, Zhang Chunqiao, Yao Wenyuan, and others, the academic criticism of "Hai Rui
Dismissed from Office" quickly escalated into a political campaign. This political criticism
became the prelude to and direct fuse of the "Cultural Revolution." On March 2, 1979, with
the approval of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China, the Beijing
Municipal Committee issued a decision to rehabilitate Wu Han and others.
[28] On December 16, 1978, Premier Hua Guofeng of the State Council of the People's
Republic of China and US President Carter simultaneously announced in Beijing and



Washington, respectively, a joint communiqué declaring the establishment of diplomatic
relations between the two countries effective January 1, 1979. The communiqué also
stipulated that the two countries would exchange ambassadors on March 1
[29] This refers to the 23-point document, "Some Questions Currently Raised in the Rural
Socialist Education Movement," drafted under Mao Zedong's leadership and adopted at an
enlarged meeting of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee. The document was
issued by the CPC Central Committee on January 14, 1965.
[30] "On the Cultivation of Communist Party Members" refers to the first and second parts
of a speech Liu Shaoqi delivered at the Yan'an Marxist-Leninist Academy in July 1939. It was
originally published in issues 81 to 84 of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of
China's Liberation in 1939, and published as a separate volume by the Xinhua Bookstore in
Yan'an that same year. In 1949, after the author's review and several revisions, the revised
first edition was published by Hufang Publishing House (the predecessor of the People's
Publishing House). In 1962, the author reviewed the book again, making some textual
revisions and additions to the content. The book was reorganized from the original two parts
to nine sections, and was republished in the combined 15th and 16th issues of the Red Flag
magazine. The revised first edition was also published by the People's Publishing House.
During the Cultural Revolution, the book, along with its author, was criticized and attacked
by the Lin Biao and Jiang Qing counter-revolutionary cliques. In March 1980, the People's
Publishing House reprinted the 1962 revised edition, and in 1981 it was included in the first
volume of Selected Works of Liu Shaoqi published by the People's Publishing House.
[31] This refers to the 16-article "Decision of the Central Committee of the Communist Party
of China on the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution," adopted on August 8, 1966, at the
11th Plenary Session of the 8th Central Committee of the Communist Party of China.
[32] This is a big-character poster written by Mao Zedong on August 5, 1966, titled
"Bombard the Headquarters—My First Big-Character Poster."
[33] Refers to the Second Plenary Session of the Seventh Central Committee of the
Communist Party of China held in Xibaipo from March 5 to 13, 1949.
[34] Chen Duxiu was one of the key leaders of the May Fourth New Culture Movement. After
the May Fourth Movement, he accepted and promoted Marxism and became one of the
main founders of the Chinese Communist Party. He was a key leader of the Party for the first
six years after its founding. In the late stages of the First Civil Revolutionary War, he
committed serious Rightist capitulationist errors. After the failure of the Great Revolution, he
became pessimistic and disappointed about the future of the revolution. He adopted
Trotskyist views, formed the Xiao Liu Jin within the Party, and engaged in anti-Party
activities. He was expelled from the Party in November 1929. He later openly engaged in
Trotskyist organizational activities. He was arrested by the Kuomintang in October 1932 and
released from prison in August 1937. He died of illness in Jiangjin, Sichuan in 1942.



[35] Kosygin was then a member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU and
Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR.
[36] Khrushchev, former First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of
the Soviet Union and Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR. He was dismissed
from his leadership positions in October 1964.
[37] This is the original text in the document of the Central Committee of the Communist
Party of China.