(July 29, 1970)
(Not reviewed by Chairman Mao)



Time: 5:00–6:00 p.m., July 29, 1970
Place: Shanghai
Attendees:
North Korean side—Head of Delegation and Chief of the General Staff of the Korean People’s Army, Oh Jin-woo; Deputy Head of Delegation and Vice Chief of the General Staff, Kim Chŏl-man; members of the delegation; Ambassador to China, Hyŏn Chun-gyŏk
Chinese side—Zhou En-lai, Huang Yŏng-sheng, Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo
Interpreters: Chinese—Chang Ting-yen; North Korean—Hwang T’ak-rong
Record Keepers: Chinese—Chao Ch’ing-t’ien; North Korean—Li Myŏng-su
(Foreign guests entered the reception hall, and Chairman Mao stepped forward to greet them, shaking hands. Oh Jin-woo said, “How are you?” Chairman Mao replied, “So-so.” Chairman Mao shook hands with each guest individually. Premier Zhou then suggested, “Let’s take a photo together.” After the photograph, Chairman Mao and the foreign guests returned to the reception hall.)



Chairman Mao: When did you arrive in Shanghai?
Chief of the General Staff Oh Jin-woo: We reached Beijing on the 25th and arrived in Shanghai on the 27th.
Chairman Mao: Today is the 29th.
Premier Zhou: That makes five days.
Chairman Mao: Have all of you been to Shanghai before?
Oh Jin-woo: This is my first visit. (Pointing to Deputy Head Kim Chŏl-man) He has been to Shanghai before.
Kim Chŏl-man: I visited Shanghai in 1964.
Chairman Mao: When did you, Ambassador, come here?
Hyŏn Chun-gyŏk: The last time Vice Premier Pak Sung-chol came, I accompanied him to Shanghai.
Chairman Mao: It’s very hot. What have you seen in Shanghai?
Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo: We’ve visited an exhibition, part of the East Sea Fleet, a militia demonstration, and today we toured a section of the Jiangnan Shipyard.
Chairman Mao: Our navy is not yet up to par; it will probably take another hundred years to catch up with certain countries. As for other matters, I’m not very familiar with them. Even this shipyard we just saw isn’t doing well. Compared with Japan at the same scale, we simply can’t build as many ships. What’s the reason for this? We need to study it and find out.
Oh Jin-woo: Today we visited the shipyard and observed that your technology is quite advanced. We gained a good understanding of the situation.
Chairman Mao: First comes eating—that’s where Japan really excels.
Oh Jin-woo: Japanese shipbuilding is world-renowned. Today we saw one of your cargo vessels, a 19,000-ton ship, which has already been launched.
Chairman Mao: Such a vessel may not be considered remarkable abroad, but in China it is quite a significant achievement.
Oh Jin-woo: Even for foreign countries, building a 19,000-ton ship is no small feat.
Chairman Mao: Please have a cigarette.
Oh Jin-woo: Thank you.
Chairman Mao: Military exchanges between us had been interrupted for several years, but they have now resumed. We should help one another. How many people live in North Korea?
Oh Jin-woo: There are currently 13 million people in North Korea.
Chairman Mao: And in South Korea?
Oh Jin-woo: Twenty-eight million. I’d like to say a few words.
Chairman Mao: Go ahead.
Oh Jin-woo: First, I would like to convey to Comrade Mao Zedong, Chairman of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China, and to your close comrade-in-arms, Comrade Lin Piao, Vice Chairman of the Central Committee, the greetings of our Party Secretary-General, Comrade Kim Il-sung.
Chairman Mao: Thank you.
Oh Jin-woo: We express our heartfelt gratitude to Comrade Mao Zedong for inviting us to visit your country in order to strengthen and develop the friendly cooperative relations between our two peoples and armies, and for taking the valuable time, amidst his busy schedule, to receive us so warmly. When Comrade Kim Il-sung dispatched our delegation to China, he remarked that our Party and government were very pleased to see the ever-growing consolidation and development of relations between our two peoples and armies. He instructed us to convey this message if we were to meet Comrade Mao Zedong.
Chairman Mao: That’s good—we should cooperate.
Oh Jin-woo: Premier Zhou En-lai’s visit to our country in April of this year was a very important opportunity to enhance mutual understanding between our two nations. Recently, our two countries again exchanged delegations and jointly held extensive commemorative events across Korea and China marking the 20th anniversary of the U.S. imperialist aggression against Korea and its occupation of Taiwan Province of China.
Chairman Mao: I met with your delegation.
Oh Jin-woo: These activities made a great contribution to strengthening and developing the friendly solidarity between the Korean and Chinese peoples in their common struggle against the United States imperialists and Japanese militarists, who are the shared enemies of both nations. At that time, the great leader of the Chinese people, Chairman Mao, together with Comrade Lin Piao, received our delegation visiting China and spoke at length about further developing the friendly relations between our two countries. Comrade Kim Il-sung and the Central Committee of our Party were greatly pleased to learn of Chairman Mao’s meeting with Vice Premier Pak Sung-chol. During this visit, our military delegation was warmly welcomed everywhere by the fraternal Chinese people and the officers and men of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army, and we exchanged views on practical issues concerning military cooperation. Your generous hospitality demonstrates the unbreakable friendship that has been forged between our two peoples and armies in the arduous struggle against our common enemy. Upon our return home, we shall certainly report to Comrade Kim Il-sung and the Central Committee about the warm reception and fraternal assistance we received in your country.
During our visit to your country, we personally witnessed the tremendous achievements made by the Chinese people under the correct leadership of their most revered great leader, Chairman Mao, in socialist construction and in strengthening national defense.
Chairman Mao: There have been some achievements, though not enormous. We are still striving, and you should continue to do so as well.
Oh Jin-woo: Of course, we must keep striving. These achievements are the result of Chairman Mao’s wise leadership, as well as the organization and mobilization of the entire Party and the whole nation to carry out the Cultural Revolution and to build socialism quickly, well, and economically. We regard all these accomplishments of the Chinese people as our own and are deeply encouraged by them. We are delighted to have such a great neighbor as China, an ally in the Korean people’s anti-U.S. struggle. We always remember Chairman Mao’s words that China is Korea’s great rear base. This serves as a tremendous source of inspiration for our people, who are engaged in socialist construction under extremely difficult conditions while directly confronting U.S. imperialism. The struggle of the Korean people to liberate the other half of their homeland—the southern region—and that of the Chinese people to liberate Taiwan Province, an inseparable part of China, are closely linked, and the destinies of the two peoples are intertwined. Going forward, we will uphold the banners of Marxism-Leninism, proletarian internationalism, and the revolutionary cause of anti-imperialist and anti-U.S. struggle, dedicating all our strength to the common cause of our two peoples and to strengthening our friendly ties with the fraternal Chinese people.
Chairman Mao: Mm-hmm.
Oh Jin-woo: We sincerely hope that the fraternal Chinese people and the Chinese People’s Liberation Army will achieve new successes in their construction endeavors and in their efforts to strengthen national security and defense capabilities.
On behalf of our military delegation, I once again express my gratitude to Comrade Mao Zedong for receiving us so warmly. We raised questions regarding military assistance with Premier Zhou En-lai and Chief of the General Staff Huang Yŏng-sheng. I believe you have already heard these reports, and we hope that Chairman Mao will resolve all matters pertaining to military aid to the extent possible.
Chairman Mao: As long as it is feasible.
Oh Jin-woo: Within the bounds of what is feasible. We put forward our requests without fully understanding your country’s military production capacity; these remain subject to adjustment based on actual conditions here. We trust that solutions can be found.
Chairman Mao: Have you finished speaking?
Oh Jin-woo: Just one more sentence. Finally, I wish the great leader of the Chinese people and our close friend, Comrade Mao Zedong, everlasting longevity.
Chairman Mao: Thank you.
Oh Jin-woo: Last night I received instructions from our beloved leader, Comrade Kim Il-sung, to return home after commemorating the Founding Day of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army together with our Chinese comrades.
Chairman Mao: Very well. Welcome back. Work together with him (pointing to Huang Yŏng-sheng) and with him (pointing to Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo).
Oh Jin-woo: Our military delegation will participate in the celebrations marking the 43rd anniversary of the founding of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army and will join the Chinese people in observing this momentous occasion. That concludes what I had to say.
Chairman Mao: Please extend my regards to Comrade Kim Il-sung when you return.
Oh Jin-woo: I will certainly convey them.
Chairman Mao: I understand he has been ill in the arm?
Oh Jin-woo: Comrade Kim Il-sung’s arm has not yet fully recovered, making movement somewhat inconvenient. Furthermore, the part of his body that underwent surgery in the past is doing well, but his kidney, which was not operated on, remains problematic and is currently undergoing treatment.
Chairman Mao: I am not particularly in favor of surgical intervention in such cases.
Oh Jin-woo: It seems there will be another phase of treatment.
Chairman Mao: (Turning to Premier Zhou) I’ve heard there is a traditional Chinese medicine that can help.
Premier Zhou: Yes, we previously administered this medicine to him, and it did dissolve some kidney stones. However, when the stones grew larger, surgery became necessary. The operation was performed successfully by doctors trained within our own ranks. The surgically treated area is fine, but other parts that were not operated on are not in good condition.
Chairman Mao: (Turning to Oh Jin-woo) Is the operated area doing well?
Oh Jin-woo: The surgically treated area is fine. It is the other part that is causing concern.
Premier Zhou: The kidney is not in good condition.
Chairman Mao: Has it been removed?
Oh Jin-woo: No, we are currently trying to avoid surgery and pursue non-surgical treatment.
Chairman Mao: Exactly—surgery is not ideal. In the past, both of my arms were also severely painful, but they eventually healed.
Premier Zhou: It was rheumatism.
Chairman Mao: The second time, while I was in Beijing, the pain moved from the left side to the right. It was then that I applied Dong E’s dogskin plaster, and the pain subsided.
Oh Jin-woo: Was the plaster applied directly to the dogskin?
Chairman Mao: I’ve heard it was applied over the dogskin.
Premier Zhou: They use something similar in Northeast China as well.
Chairman Mao: It appears to function primarily as a warming compress. Earlier this year, upon returning to Beijing, my left arm began to ache again. Despite no specific treatment, the pain eventually disappeared. Such ailments can heal on their own without any intervention. Previously, I couldn’t raise both hands simultaneously—one high, the other low—but now I can. (Demonstrates raising both hands to shoulder height.)
Oh Jin-woo: Our Prime Minister’s arm also cannot be fully raised.
Chairman Mao: These kinds of problems are common everywhere.
Oh Jin-woo: The arm of our Vice Premier Pak Sung-chol is also not functioning properly.
Chairman Mao: He looks quite well, though.
Oh Jin-woo: He underwent several months of treatment this spring, and his condition seems to be the same as that of the Prime Minister.
Premier Zhou: He developed rheumatism during the guerrilla warfare period.
Chairman Mao: I think my ailment arose because I no longer engage in combat; I travel by car rather than horseback and spend less time in the sun.
Oh Jin-woo: Lack of physical activity.
Chairman Mao: That’s exactly the point. How old are you?
Oh Jin-woo: Fifty-three years old.
Chairman Mao: (Turning to Huang Yŏng-sheng) He joined the army at the age of seventeen.
Premier Zhou: Back in the Jinggangshan era.
Chairman Mao: May God bless him—he wasn’t killed. He started as a squad leader, then became a platoon leader and finally a company commander.
Huang Yŏng-sheng: He never skipped a rank.
Premier Zhou: That was during the Great Revolution of 1927.
Oh Jin-woo: It’s been a long time.
Chairman Mao: Thirty-seven, forty-seven, fifty-seven, sixty-seven… Forty-three years have passed.
Premier Zhou: In 1970, he turned sixty.
Chairman Mao: (Turning to Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo) When did you join the army?
Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo: In 1929.
Chairman Mao: How old are you?
Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo: Almost fifty-five years old.
Huang Yŏng-sheng: You enlisted even younger.
Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo: Fifteen years old.
Premier Zhou: A Red Little Soldier.
Chairman Mao: Our army has essentially two instructors: Chiang Kai-shek and the Japanese. An army that doesn’t fight is not a true army.
Oh Jin-woo: That’s right.
Chairman Mao: I’ve heard that nowadays, fewer company commanders have combat experience, and there are hardly any squad leaders left.
Premier Zhou: Many company and platoon leaders have never seen combat, although battalion commanders sometimes have some experience.
Huang Yŏng-sheng: Only a very small number of company commanders fought in the border conflicts with India in 1962 and in the battle to defend Zhenbao Island.
Premier Zhou: Among the troops we sent to Vietnam to repair railways and highways, as well as among the anti-aircraft units, there are some squad leaders who have been in combat.
Oh Jin-woo: We’re the same—many of our platoon and company commanders have no combat experience.
Premier Zhou: Don’t you engage in skirmishes along the 38th Parallel?
Oh Jin-woo: Those are merely guard posts; they aren’t real battles—just occasional gunfire.
Chairman Mao: That doesn’t count. One must be prepared to fight. Nevertheless, you always seem to feel as though the enemy might attack at any moment. You are on the front lines, while we are somewhat further back, so your heightened sense of alertness is understandable. We ourselves are also quite tense and preparing accordingly. What did you request from them (referring to Premier Zhou and Huang Yŏng-sheng)?
Oh Jin-woo: We made numerous requests.
Chairman Mao: I saw that you discussed these matters with them yesterday, and I’m sure you’ll receive whatever you need when the time comes. But not at any cost. Your soldiers are risking their lives on the front lines; do you really expect guns, artillery, and ammunition without paying anything in return? We have a rule: we do not sell or trade in weapons.
Premier Zhou: Mutual military assistance.
Oh Jin-woo: Our army and our people regard Chairman Mao’s words as a source of great confidence and are actively engaged in war preparations.
Chairman Mao: However, our production has declined somewhat over the past two years—in 1967 and 1968, output fell significantly. There was intense fighting; factories split into opposing factions and clashed with one another—this was precisely what fell under his jurisdiction (pointing to Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo). The clashes continued for two years in 1967 and 1968. Perhaps there were some benefits to it—a kind of training. Schools and factories were also involved. We hadn’t anticipated this when we initiated the Cultural Revolution: why did every factory end up divided into two camps? Why did they start fighting so easily? Some factories even managed to produce hand grenades and makeshift tanks. Ultimately, after two years of conflict, the fighting ceased. Last year, there were virtually no clashes, and things have improved this year.
Premier Zhou: There were still minor skirmishes in Zhoushan.
Chairman Mao: Everyone has a backer—the chief of staff. (Laughter)
Oh Jin-woo: Someone is directing operations from behind the scenes.
Chairman Mao: Sometimes, demobilized soldiers—company commanders, battalion commanders, even regimental commanders—are the ones giving orders. In some cases, malicious elements are deliberately stirring up trouble. But last year the situation gradually stabilized, and this year it seems to be improving. So don’t be pessimistic; have confidence. In a few years, I believe there will be some hope. Don’t be pessimistic; have confidence. In a few years, I believe there will be some hope. Was your ambassador appointed last year?
Premier Zhou: He was originally appointed, but later fell ill and went back to recover. He returned this year after regaining his health.
Chairman Mao: (Turning to Ambassador Hyŏn Chun-gyŏk) It’s a pity you didn’t witness all of this.
Premier Zhou: The Chairman means he didn’t see the entire course of the Cultural Revolution.
Chairman Mao: We call it a full-scale civil war because it occurred everywhere. Of course, it wasn’t entirely comprehensive—some places remained peaceful. I believe very few provinces were completely untouched.
Oh Jin-woo: Could it be that Chiang Kai-shek’s agents infiltrated and were active?
Chairman Mao: Those bastards!
Oh Jin-woo: Were they already lurking here?
Chairman Mao: For example, certain munitions factories—these are remnants from the old regime.
Premier Zhou: The fighting was most intense in Chongqing.
Chairman Mao: Take, for instance, a university in Shanghai—the Second Military Medical University. There were quite a large number of former generals, colonels, and majors who had been planted there by Chiang Kai-shek, not to mention even more junior officers. These individuals were Nationalists who seized the opportunity to stage a rebellion. In Beijing, they smashed and burned the British legation, and the embassies of Indonesia and India were also damaged. However, the Soviet embassy remained intact, protected by vigilant crowds who prevented anyone from entering the premises.
Premier Zhou: Back in 1966, I had contact with high school students who gathered there and renamed the street “Anti-Revisionism Road.” They were hundreds of thousands of people, acting in perfect order for five consecutive days. At that time, no malicious elements had yet infiltrated; they were still naive. Our words still carried weight then.
Chairman Mao: Some bad elements did emerge. Once they disobeyed, that was actually a good thing! It exposed them. That’s why we said that purging the ranks involved just these few steps. (Turning to Premier Zhou) Did anyone specifically show them around a factory?
Premier Zhou: We planned to take them to the Erqi Factory and the Nankou Factory to demonstrate the entire process of “struggle, criticism, and reorganization” in our factories. Schools could also be shown this process.
Oh Jin-woo: We’ve heard that the ship we saw today was built during the Cultural Revolution.
Chairman Mao: (Turning to Premier Zhou) Which shipyard was it?
Premier Zhou: (Turning to Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo) Was it the Hudong Shipyard or the Jiangnan Shipyard?
Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo: The Jiangnan Shipyard.
Oh Jin-woo: Today we visited the factory, and the workers there were all vigorously and enthusiastically engaged in their work—they are exemplary. We now believe that wherever we have been, whether among the people or the military, everyone has been armed with Chairman Mao’s thought.
Chairman Mao: They have indeed gone through the “struggle, criticism, and reorganization” campaign. The Jiangnan Shipyard is also an old shipyard.
Premier Zhou: It has a history of 105 years.
Oh Jin-woo: We know that being old doesn’t necessarily mean it’s free of problems. I suspect there are still many hidden issues.
Chairman Mao: In a few years, no one will be talking about this anymore.
Oh Jin-woo: Yesterday we watched a militia performance. They performed so skillfully, as if they were actually engaged in combat, hitting every target perfectly.
Chairman Mao: Don’t be fooled. When faced with a real enemy, they may not perform as well.
Premier Zhou: They haven’t had any real combat experience; what they’re practicing now are static targets.
Oh Jin-woo: Their fighting spirit is very strong.
Chairman Mao: Was that in Shanghai?
Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo: It was a performance by workers from factories and commune members from rural areas.
Oh Jin-woo: Yesterday we also saw a family shooting demonstration. Twelve members, ranging in age from a 58-year-old grandfather to a 9-year-old grandson, all participated. From the very first shot, every target they aimed at was knocked down.
Chairman Mao: That was staged specifically for you to see.
Ch’iu Hŭi-tsuo: It was called a “family team.”
Chairman Mao: Such displays can only happen a few times. They can be repeated, but there’s no need to pour cold water on them. However, facing a real enemy is a different matter altogether. You’ve all been in combat and know what it’s like.
Oh Jin-woo: We observed that the intensity and level of training among the local militias here are very high.
Chairman Mao: (Turning to Oh Jin-woo) Have a cigarette.
In my view, the consciousness of people around the world has risen compared to a few years ago. Imperialism and its lackeys are facing a crisis. People in various countries are resisting it, including those within their own nations. However, we must recognize that imperialism, along with its allies and neighboring countries, still retains considerable power and continues to plot mischief. Therefore, we need to prepare to counter it. Yet I firmly believe that peoples around the globe will assist one another. For example, when the American people rise up in protest, American capitalists become anxious. The tension in the United States is comparable to ours.
Premier Zhou: It’s even more tense than ours. Nixon travels everywhere giving speeches, only to be met with boos and protests wherever he goes.
Chairman Mao: (Turning to Premier Zhou) Where does he go to speak?
Premier Zhou: To the West, where he is constantly heckled and forced to stop speaking. He can deliver a speech in one place for only about fifteen minutes before being drowned out. He’s tried several locations this year, but none have worked.
Chairman Mao: He’s from the West.
Premier Zhou: Indeed, he’s from the West. People are protesting against him, and much of American public opinion holds that no president has ever been more unpopular than he is.
Chairman Mao: The prestige of these major powers is declining. By “declining prestige,” I mean that people are losing faith in these leaders. We still need to prepare—what if they invade? Being prepared has its advantages. Especially for you, Chief of the General Staff—if I didn’t say this, you’d just fall asleep. (Laughter)
Oh Jin-woo: (Laughing) We should be prepared.
Premier Zhou: Preparation is beneficial.
Chairman Mao: Please convey my greetings to Comrade Kim Il-sung and wish him a speedy recovery.
Oh Jin-woo: Thank you. I will certainly pass on your message.
Chairman Mao: Also send my regards to Comrade Choe Yong-kun.
Oh Jin-woo: I will certainly do so.
Chairman Mao: And please extend my greetings to all other comrades I know.
Oh Jin-woo: Thank you.
Chairman Mao: I hope you will continue to develop and prosper.
Oh Jin-woo: Thank you.
Chairman Mao: We’ve been talking about unity.
Oh Jin-woo: Thank you, Chairman Mao, for taking the precious time to engage in such a warm and cordial conversation with us.
Chairman Mao: (Turning to Ambassador Hyŏn Chun-gyŏk) When did you arrive?
Premier Zhou: We picked up both of you—yourself and the deputy head of the delegation—by plane from Beijing early this morning.
Chairman Mao: They were in Beijing?
Premier Zhou: Yes. We arrived last night.
Chairman Mao: So you didn’t sleep at all?
Premier Zhou: I got a little rest.
Hyŏn Chun-gyŏk: We learned this morning that Chairman Mao would receive us and that a plane had been arranged for us, so we came by air.
(Chairman Mao finishes speaking with the guests and stands up)
Chairman Mao: (Turning to the interpreter) Are you Korean or Chinese?
Hyŏn Chun-gyŏk: He speaks Korean very well.
Chairman Mao: (Pointing to the interpreter) You look Korean to me.
(Chairman Mao escorts the foreign guests to the door and bids them farewell with a handshake)
Oh Jin-woo: Wishing Chairman Mao everlasting longevity.
Chairman Mao: Thank you. And wishing Comrade Kim Il-sung everlasting longevity.
Chairman Mao: (Shaking hands with Hyŏn Chun-gyŏk) The surname Hyŏn is quite rare.
Hyŏn Chun-gyŏk: (Nods) This is the second time Chairman Mao has mentioned this.
Chairman Mao: (Quoting an ancient Chinese saying, “Mysterious beyond mystery, the gateway to all wonders”) The character “hyŏn” carries a positive connotation.
Hyŏn Chun-gyŏk: Thank you.
Chairman Mao: It comes from Laozi’s writings. (Referring to the quoted passage)