(July 15, 1970)

(Not reviewed by the person himself)

Time: July 15, 1970, until 16:00
Place: Room 118, Great Hall of the People
Participants:
Lao side: Sisavath, Sanan, Khamphay
Chinese side: Lin Biao, Zhou Enlai, Kang Sheng, Huang Yongsheng, Qiu Huizuo, Shen Jian
Interpreter: Huang Qun
Recorder: Lü Huixiang

Chairman Mao (hereinafter referred to as Chairman): When did you arrive?

Kaysone (hereinafter referred to as Kai): We arrived on June 30.

Chairman: You are leaving tomorrow?

Kai: Yes, tomorrow we are going to visit Korea.

Chairman: Very good. Korea's opinion is now consistent with yours.

Kai: When our delegation visited China, we reported the situation to the Chinese Party. Based on the current new situation, we have formulated a three-year struggle plan for the future, with the aim of further vigorously advancing our struggle to resist the U.S. and save the nation, in order to seize even greater victories.

Chairman: How large is your country?

Kai: 210,000 square kilometers. Our population is very small.

Chairman: 2.6 million?

Kai: Correct.

Chairman: After fighting for so many years, don't you feel a lack of manpower and material resources?

Kai: We are now rather deficient in some things.

Chairman: Deficient in what?

Kai: For example, in terms of manpower, there are very few people to replenish the troops. Due to the lack of manpower, there are also difficulties in carrying out production. We also feel it is difficult to do a good job in production to serve the front line and improve the lives of the masses.

Chairman: It seems the war will be prolonged.

Kai: We also analyze it this way; the possibility of the war being prolonged is very high. Because U.S. imperialism is very stubborn, and its military and economic potential is still enormous. Although the war will be prolonged, we are determined to fight on.

Chairman: That's good. When encountering difficulties, one needs to have determination. It's nothing more than difficulties, few people, few material resources.

Having many people also has its difficulties. For example, does the United States not have difficulties? Does Thailand not have difficulties? Their difficulties may be even greater than yours.

Kai: Chairman Mao is very right. Our difficulties are difficulties in the midst of victory; the difficulties of U.S. imperialism and its running dogs are difficulties in the midst of defeat.

Chairman: Correct. Last time I said to you, is it possible to organize a force to fight its way into Thailand? Because the Thais are fighting you. You can come, why can't I go?

Kai: I remember these words of Chairman Mao very clearly.

Chairman: In which places in Thailand do your people live?

Kai: Our base in Xayaboury is a rear area prepared for the Thai comrades. Our base in Nam Lèo is also greatly related to the struggle of the Thai Communist Party. The movement of the Thai Communist Party in this region is doing quite well.

Chairman: Are the people in that place all of your nationality?

Kai: The entire border region is of the same nationality as us.

Chairman: Is the population larger than in your country?

Kai: Much larger. In this area alone (referring to eastern and northern Thailand), there are 5 or 6 million.

Chairman: How did it come to belong to Thailand now?

Kai: In the 17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries, Laos was still a country of feudal separatism and had not yet entered centralism. At that time, our border extended all the way to this side (referring to eastern and northern Thailand). In the early and mid-19th century, the Thai feudal dynasty attacked the Lao feudal dynasty, and later divided Laos into many small kingdoms.

Chairman: The Kingdom of Luang Prabang?

Kai: Correct. And the Kingdom of Houayxay, the Kingdom of Xieng Khouang, the Kingdom of Vientiane, and other kingdoms.

Chairman: A great many kingdoms.

Kai: At that time, the Lao feudal class had not yet entered centralism.

Chairman: Correct.

Kai: Although there was a nationwide king at the top, below it was still feudal separatism. Later, British and French imperialism came in. In 1893, they signed an agreement that divided Laos in half. Roughly, west of the Mekong River was the British sphere of influence, and east was the French sphere of influence. At that time, China's Yunnan was also incorporated into the French sphere of influence.

Chairman: Guangdong, Guangxi, all the way to Guangzhouwan were the French sphere of influence.

Russia and Japan contended for the Northeast, that is, the Manchuria region. From Beijing to Guangzhou was the British sphere of influence; the Beijing government was mainly controlled by the British. So, why did Wu Peifu fight Zhang Zuolin? It was the British who did it. Later he himself regretted it, feeling he had been duped. Later, the British gave up their sphere of influence in China to the Japanese, because at that time Hitler had risen, and they couldn't attend to their own affairs.

Kai: Laos was originally a French sphere of influence. Later the Americans came in and replaced the French. Now the Japanese have also inserted themselves, and Thailand also has ambitions for Laos. Although our country Laos is small, many imperialist powers have taken a fancy to it. So we say that little Laos is also a microcosm of old China; many countries have taken a fancy to it.

Chairman: Exactly.

Kai: Now they are flying the flag of the United Nations, and more countries have inserted themselves, like Canada, Australia, and the Philippines have all come in.

Chairman: The Philippines is no good anymore.

Kai: Correct. Although our country is small and our population is small, the United States has spent a lot of money in our Laos.

Chairman: What does he (referring to Sisavath) do?

Zhou Enlai (hereinafter referred to as Zhou): He is the Chief of the General Staff of the army.

Chairman: You are in charge of fighting. Do you know our Chief of the General Staff, Comrade Huang Yongsheng?

Sisavath: I have met Comrade Huang Yongsheng before. Our relationship is very close.

Chairman: Unreliable.

Have we helped them too little?

Zhou: We have met all the requests they have put forward. The main difficulty now is transportation.

Chairman: Wasn't a road built?

Zhou: It is not yet fully open. It only reaches Muang Xay; it is not yet fully open to Sam Neua and the Plain of Jars. The population over in Phongsaly is small, only 90,000 people.

Chairman: The world has changed. From the perspective of Laos, this is also proven.

Imperialism is seeking its own destruction. Its purpose is to occupy places, to find people to bury it. We have experience. For example, Japan occupied more than half of China, occupied many places. Except for Sichuan and some other places, all were occupied by it. The result was that it helped us; the common people all rose up to oppose it. By the time it surrendered, our army exceeded 1 million. When we started fighting Japan, our army was only 20,000 strong.

What were you doing when we started fighting Japan?

Huang Yongsheng (hereinafter referred to as Huang): After the troops were downsized, I was a regimental commander.

Chairman: In the early period of fighting Japan, he was just a regimental commander. From Jinggangshan to the War of Resistance, he fought for 10 years. He became a soldier at 17.

Lin: Among our current military cadres, he has the most seniority. He became a soldier during the Autumn Harvest Uprising. He has more seniority than the cadres of all the major military regions.

Chairman: The Japanese educated the Chinese people. Later, the Americans helped Chiang Kai-shek fight us. After Japan surrendered, Chiang Kai-shek signed a peace agreement with us. When he was ready, he sent troops to fight us. Therefore, we don't much believe in things like treaties and signatures; there's a reason for this. For example, our two sides have no treaty, nor have we signed anything, but our words count! The words of imperialists don't count for much, including the American running dog Souvanna Phouma.

Some things, you can say forming a coalition government is also possible, but you must be prepared for another move. The purpose of forming a coalition government is to eliminate the coalition government.

Kai: Correct.

Chairman: A permanent coalition government? There is no such thing.

Kai: We have also had the lessons of several negotiations and two formations of coalition governments. The first coalition government lasted for more than a year, then he suppressed and destroyed it, so we started fighting again. The second coalition government lasted only 8 months, and he destroyed it again, so we started fighting again. What Chairman Mao just said is very correct: a coalition government is not the goal, but a means to continue advancing the revolution, to complete the national democratic revolution, and then to build socialism. So, forming a coalition government is for the purpose of eliminating the government.

Chairman: Just these few words. It's the same for Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, and Burma. Now the guerrilla forces in Burma and Thailand have developed, although their scale is not yet large. The guerrilla force is a school for training cadres. The bourgeoisie will never train communist cadres for us.

Kai: Chairman Mao is very right.

Chairman: Its armed forces want to eliminate us, well then, we'll just fight. If you fight, you must have a force, and this force can train cadres. We should first make it clear that there must be people, there must be soldiers in the army. But the people and the soldiers need cadres to lead them; without leadership, they are scattered.

What ethnic groups do we have that are close to the Lao?

Zhou: Close to the Lao people are the Dai and the Zhuang. The Dai and Zhuang languages are 40% intelligible. Both these groups are close to them. The Dai in Xishuangbanna are also close to them.

Kai: The people in China's Xishuangbanna may be of the same nationality as us.

Chairman: Not a large population?

Kai: Not large.

Chairman: What about the Zhuang in Guangxi?

Kai: The Zhuang language in Guangxi is somewhat intelligible to us in daily life.

Chairman: A bit Sinicized.

Kai: The Zhuang language in Guangxi now has a lot of Chinese words.

Chairman: Let them be Laotianized.

Huang: There are quite a few Miao people in Laos.

Kai: There are many Miao people in northern Laos. Our Xieng Khouang is the most concentrated area for the Miao people, with a relatively large population. There are also Miao people distributed in Sam Neua, Phongsaly, Luang Prabang, Oudomxay, Xayaboury, and Vientiane.

Chairman: Several hundred thousand?

Kai: About 200,000.

Huang: The Miao in Laos are the same as the Miao in Guangxi.

Chairman: How do you know?

Huang: I have investigated.

Lin: He worked in Guangdong for a long time.

Chairman: He was the commander of Guangdong.

Historically, Great Han chauvinism was quite severe, forcing ethnic minorities to assimilate, and fighting them if they didn't. So, the Miao, Yao, Zhuang, and Yi peoples have suffered countless wars in history, but they can fight. The Han people are numerous and bully them.

Kai: The Miao people there can also fight. So, now the Americans are using the Miao people to establish a "special force," attempting to use this force for a long time to sabotage the Lao revolution.

Chairman: You must fight your way into Thailand.

Zhou: Thailand is participating in the fighting in Laos and Cambodia; it has already crossed the national borders!

Chairman: Thailand has a large population, 30 million. I don't know what nationality the Thais are.

Zhou: Basically Thai.

Chairman: Historically, wars have never ceased. I said to Comrade Le Duan last time, it seems this world is not so peaceful. There are still imperialists in the world who want to make trouble. I think the people of all countries are also about to rise up, including the people of imperialist countries. There are those engaged in peace movements, those fighting as guerrillas, those pondering problems, and also many people who are not yet awakened. The people of all countries rising up against imperialism, this is called revolution. Can one believe that there was only the October Revolution, or the Chinese Revolution, the Vietnamese Revolution, the Lao Revolution, and that there will be no revolution in other places? Impossible!

Lin: Where there is oppression and exploitation, there is revolution.

Chairman: If there is no revolution in other places, then Marxism-Leninism would not be effective. Lenin said that imperialism is moribund capitalism; otherwise, its name would have to be changed to imperialism is ascendant capitalism.

Imperialism is not so comfortable either. Do you think Nixon is so comfortable?

Zhou: Can't sleep all day.

Chairman: What does that comrade (referring to Sanan) do?

Kai: He is in charge of propaganda work. That comrade is Khamphay, our Party's representative in Hanoi.

Chairman: I am familiar with this name.

The issues are clear. I have also read the transcript of your talks.

Kai: Thank you, Chairman Mao.

Chairman: There are difficulties, but the hope is greater. It seems you are all not very old.

Zhou: None are old. Comrade Khamphay is probably a bit older, 54.

Chairman: You are not very old yet.

Kai: I have just turned 50.

Chairman: A year and a half older than Sihanouk.

Kai: Comrade Sanan is 50, Comrade Sisavath is 42.

Chairman: And Comrade Souphanouvong?

Kai: He turned 61 on July 13 this year.

Chairman: About the same as you.

Lin: Two years younger than me.

Chairman: About the same.

Zhou: Economic aid and military aid can meet their requirements.

Chairman: For anything economic or military, you go find these few gentlemen.

Kai: We report to Chairman Mao that the economic aid group and the military aid group have both done their work. We have met with each other and had very good talks.

Facing the current new situation, we also request that the Communist Party of China strengthen its support and assistance to us.

Chairman: Yes. You have to raise it. If you don't raise it, who will pay attention to you?

Kai: We have raised it.

Chairman: If you raise it, there will be a way. Just go find them. Don't you be nervous (laughs, facing Qiu Huizuo), they are making a revolution!

Kang Sheng (hereinafter referred to as Kang): The economic aspect is handled by Comrade Li Qiang, and it has been basically resolved. The things they have requested, as long as we have them or can produce them, can basically be resolved.

Chairman: If the economic problems can be solved, you can levy fewer taxes on the people.

Kang: They used to use Phouma's currency; now they use their own new currency.

Kai: The money we use now was printed with China's help.

Chairman: China didn't know how to print it in the past either; we also learned from foreign countries. This also proves that anything can be learned.

Kai: Correct.

Chairman: In the future, after you take Vientiane, Luang Prabang, and Savannakhet, you can open a printing press.

I don't quite understand, how did the name Vientiane come about?

Kai: Laos has many elephants. In the past, the king's ceremonies all required elephants, especially white elephants, which were the most precious.

Our Xayaboury province has many elephants, and Nam Lèo also has many elephants. Due to many years of war, with the enemy constantly bombing and strafing, the elephants have also run away.

Chairman: Today you have solved a problem for me. There is an ancient Chinese book called "Qiyan Lu," a book of jokes written during the Sui Dynasty. It says that the Northern Dynasties of China believed in Buddhism. Once, at a large assembly, some high-level monks were giving a lecture. In the middle of it, a person stood up and asked him what animal Shakyamuni usually rode when he went out. He said, at home Shakyamuni sat on a lotus throne, and when he went out, he rode a white elephant. This person who stood up said, that's wrong, you haven't understood the Buddhist scriptures at all. When Shakyamuni went out, he rode an ox. The Buddhist scriptures say, "yin mao qi te." "Qi te," doesn't that mean riding an ox? The monk, upon hearing this, didn't know whether to laugh or cry, and couldn't deal with him.

Let's not talk anymore. We'll talk again next time. Next time we won't talk about oxen or dogs. I won't see you in three years' time.

Lin: The Chairman can still live for 30 years.

Kai: We are very happy to see Chairman Mao today. Chairman Mao talked to us today about very important issues, both about the Lao revolution and the world revolution. These words spoken by Chairman Mao are extremely important for guiding our revolutionary struggle.

Chairman: But the part about Shakyamuni riding an ox is not included.