(May 11, 1970)

[Lê Duẩn (Vietnamese: Lê Duẩn, 1907–1986), born in Triệu Phong County, Quảng Trị Province, Vietnam, was one of the principal founders and leaders of the Communist Party of Vietnam, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam, as well as one of the early founders of the Indochinese Communist Party. He ruled Vietnam (including the period of North Vietnam) for seventeen years. After Hồ Chí Minh's death in 1969, the Vietnam Workers' Party no longer had a chairman, and as First Secretary, Lê Duẩn became the top leader of North Vietnam, leading and subsequently unifying Vietnam. When South Vietnam was incorporated into North Vietnam in 1976, the Vietnam Workers' Party was renamed the Communist Party of Vietnam, and Lê Duẩn became General Secretary of the Central Committee, the supreme leader of the Communist Party of Vietnam.]

Time: 18:45 to 20:15, May 11, 1970

Location: Hall 118, Great Hall of the People

Participants:

Vietnamese side: Lê Ban, Ngô Thuyền

Chinese side: Lin Biao, Zhou Enlai, Kang Sheng, Huang Yongsheng

Interpreter: Huang Qun

Recorder: Lu Huixiang

Chairman Mao (hereinafter referred to as Chairman): When was the last time I saw you?

Lê Duẩn (hereinafter referred to as Lê): In 1964.

We are very excited to see Chairman Mao in good health.

We are very happy that Chairman Mao has made time to meet with us this time. At present, the situation in Vietnam and Indochina is rather complicated, and there are also some difficulties.

Chairman: Difficulties exist in every country, in the Soviet Union, and in the United States as well.

Lê: We very much need to receive Chairman Mao's guidance. Our Central Committee and Politburo would surely be very glad to know if Chairman Mao has any suggestions for our work.

Chairman: You have done your work very well, and it’s getting better and better.

Lê: We do our utmost to do the work well. The reason we have been able to do it well is also that we have followed the three points Chairman Mao previously told us: first, do not be afraid, do not fear the enemy; second, defeat them one by one; third, fight a protracted war.

Chairman: Fight a protracted war. Prepare for a protracted war. Wouldn’t it be better if it weren’t protracted?

Who is actually afraid of whom? Is it you Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Southeast Asians who fear U.S. imperialism, or is U.S. imperialism afraid of you? This is a question, worth considering, worth studying. Is it that the big country fears the small countries, panicking at the slightest stir? In the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, you gave them a bit of a jolt, not that you deliberately intended to attack the U.S. Navy, and afterward, you didn’t actually hit them, but they got nervous themselves, said Vietnamese torpedo boats were coming, and opened fire. Later, the Americans themselves couldn’t tell whether it was real or fake. American journalists everywhere confirmed it was fake, a false alarm. Since the fighting started, it just had to go on, which is beneficial to arms dealers. The U.S. President sleeps very little every night. Nixon himself said his main energy is devoted to dealing with Vietnam.

Now there’s also Sihanouk, this prince is not easily provoked either. If you provoke him, he will jump out and curse.

I think some of our embassies need to be reorganized. Some of our Chinese embassies exhibit great-power chauvinism, always fixating on others’ shortcomings and disregarding the larger picture. Who was the previous ambassador to Vietnam?

Zhou Enlai (hereinafter referred to as Zhou): Zhu Qiwen.

Chairman: Zhu Qiwen got into a very stiff relationship with you. It turned out that Zhu Qiwen was a Kuomintang member, wanting to flee abroad. We didn’t know he was a Kuomintang member, and you were dealing with a Kuomintang member. Why didn’t he cause trouble for you? We didn’t know either, but at the time, when I saw those telegrams, I was not pleased.

Lê: The Vietnamese people always cherish Chairman Mao’s benevolence in our hearts. During the nine-year war of resistance against France, without the help of the Communist Party of China and Chairman Mao, we could not have achieved victory. The reason we have been able to persist in protracted resistance, especially in the South today, and dare to fight a prolonged war, is largely by relying on Chairman Mao’s writings.

Chairman: Not necessarily.

Lê: Of course, we must also be adept at applying them within the actual circumstances of Vietnam.

Chairman: You have your own creativity. Why would you have no creativity, no experience? Diem killed 160,000 people — I heard the report, not sure if it’s accurate, but it was a matter of killing over a hundred thousand people.

Lê: Indeed, 160,000 were killed, and many more were arrested and imprisoned.

Chairman: I think this is just fine. You come to kill me, can’t I kill you?

Lê: Precisely so. In 1969 alone, we killed and wounded 610,000 enemy troops, of which 230,000 were U.S. soldiers.

Chairman: The Americans now have an insufficient distribution of population and are spread too thin across the world. So, casualties are very distressing for them. Losing some tens of thousands is a major event for them. You Vietnamese, whether in North or South, casualties are bound to happen.

Lê: With our current way of fighting, casualties are very few. Otherwise, we would not be able to persist for a long time.

Chairman: Exactly. I’m afraid Laos has it a bit harder. Are there any Lao people in China?

Zhou: A few.

Chairman: In which province?

Zhou: In Yunnan Province, in the area bordering Laos.

Chairman: In Xishuangbanna?

Huang Yongsheng: There are some in Xishuangbanna as well.

Zhou: Our Zhuang people are also quite similar to yours.

Chairman: In the future, when Laos reaches a decisive victory, we can recruit some Zhuang people from Guangxi, and some Dai people from Yunnan. The Zhuang are very capable fighters. In the past, the warlords Bai Chongxi and Li Zongren relied on the Zhuang. How many Zhuang are there now? 8 million?

Zhou: More now, over 10 million.

Chairman: That’s Wei Guoqing’s ethnic group; he himself didn’t admit it. I asked him, which ethnic group do you belong to? An ethnic minority, isn’t it? He said, I am Han Chinese. It was only later that he admitted he is Zhuang.

Zhou: The soldiers of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom were good fighters, and part of them were Zhuang.

Chairman: Part of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom’s army was also from Guangxi.

Lê: The Nùng people in Vietnam are also very capable fighters, and the Nùng and the Zhuang in Guangxi are the same ethnic group.

Chairman: Southeast Asia is a hornet’s nest. The people of Southeast Asia are awakening day by day. Some pacifists think it’s just a matter of roosters being combative. But how can there be so many roosters? Now even hens are becoming combative!

Lê: Not fighting is no longer an option.

Chairman: Not fighting won’t do anymore. You leave people with no other path; you bully them!

Lê: The Cambodians and Lao people originally believed in Buddhism and were not combative, but now they have become combative too.

Chairman: Exactly. Don’t think that just because they believe in Buddhism they aren’t combative. China also believed in Buddhism. The 1911 Revolution fought for 17 years, and then the two factions internally fought each other, which educated the people. Then came the Northern Expedition, then the Red Army, then the Japanese invaded, and after Japan’s surrender, Chiang Kai-shek fought us. He fought for less than four years and then quit, fleeing to Taiwan. He now claims to represent all of China in the United Nations. His relationship with a few of us is very close. I met Chiang Kai-shek a few times, seen him when the Kuomintang held Central Committee plenary sessions in Guangzhou. I was a member of the Kuomintang, a cross-party member; I was both a Central Committee member of the Communist Party and an alternate Central Committee member of the Kuomintang. Back then, several of us participated. Our Premier [Zhou Enlai] was the political department director at Chiang Kai-shek’s Whampoa Military Academy, and the acting party representative of Chiang Kai-shek’s First Army. Comrade Lin Biao, needless to say, was his student; he studied at Whampoa for nine months. In China, among the older generation, very few have not dealt with him.

Lin Biao (hereinafter referred to as Lin): I was also a cross-party member.

Chairman: We helped organize the Kuomintang’s party branches. Without the Communist Party’s help, the Kuomintang could never have carried out the Northern Expedition. At that time, in the Yellow River region and in the north, it had no party at all, no party branches; it relied on the Communist Party to help organize them.

Besides, we engaged in workers’ movements and peasant movements, and the Kuomintang made use of these, which was beneficial to it. In the first year of the Northern Expedition, it made use of us; in the second year, it massacred us. The Northern Expedition started in 1926, and in 1927 it massacred us. Now, this prince of Cambodia still stands on our side, which is also very rare. Sixteen years now, and judging by his demeanor, he doesn’t seem afraid of the Communist Party.

Zhou: Now Sihanouk, on the contrary, often mentions the fighters in the domestic jungles; Communists like Xiu Mu, he doesn’t emphasize.

Chairman: Won’t you go see him?

Zhou: Comrade Lê Duẩn wants to see him.

Lê: In 1956, when I was working in the South, upon hearing that Sihanouk was visiting China, I was very pleased. At that time, I immediately left the South and went to Phnom Penh, and we even held the Cochinchina Region Committee there. (Note: During the French colonial period in Vietnam, Vietnam was divided into three "regions": North, Central, and South. The Cochinchina Region Committee was the Party Committee of the Southern region of Vietnam.) At that time, I asked Sihanouk whether we might let some of our resistance personnel go to Phnom Penh. He was still sympathetic to us at that time.

Chairman: Now he’s completely helpless away from you. Away from you and the Khmer Rouge, what means does he have?

Lê: From my observation, ever since the victory of the Chinese Revolution, he has also been constantly pondering that this region of Southeast Asia will one day become a domain of the Communist Party.

Chairman: Correct.

Zhou: When he meets with journalists, he also says, I would be fine if I could become pink now!

Kang: He says Chairman Mao told him to read Marx’s books.

Chairman: Several years ago, I already told him, why do you need to be this king? I told him to read two books by Marx, one is *The Communist Manifesto*, the other is *Socialism: Utopian and Scientific*. He said to me, I’m no longer capable, I’m old; it’s a matter for my son.

The world’s affairs are quite strange. 190 years ago, when the Americans opposed the British, the U.S. had a population of only 3 million, while Britain at that time likely had over 20 million, and had colonies all over the world. In fact, the main body, the principal part of the American people, was precisely British. The British opposed the British — if you say that isn’t strange?

Lê: Recently, Nixon also said that in 190 years, the United States has never lost, implying this time it doesn’t intend to lose to Vietnam either.

Chairman: Never lost?

Lê: Actually, it has lost many times. In China, in Korea, and during the Indochina resistance against France, it funded 80% of the French military expenditures, and the result was defeat.

Chairman: Exactly!

The first point you just mentioned was not to fear imperialism. The question of who is actually afraid of whom — for small countries and small nations, this issue exists. They test it out gradually, and after a few years of trials, they understand. In the Tang Dynasty of China, there was a writer named Liu Zongyuan; he wrote a fable called "Guizhou Donkey Exhausts Its Tricks" — the translation can be read to you for your listening. It’s always the case that the big is afraid of the small; the small slowly tests it out and realizes the big is not really formidable. Our Party, when it started, only had 70 members, and no one took it seriously. Only after enduring many setbacks did we slowly learn a few things. These you are probably all aware of.

As for this Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, there are many who don’t understand it. Not only foreign comrades or friends don’t understand, but many among ourselves also don’t understand.

Let me give you an example: Near Beijing, there’s a factory called the Erqi Locomotive and Rolling Stock Plant. This factory has over 8,000 workers, and counting family members, 40,000 people. Yet it had never been cleaned up. Now, upon being cleaned up, it was discovered that there were three branches of the Kuomintang, called district divisions. In addition, there were three branches of the Kuomintang’s Three Principles of the People Youth Corps. This time, these elements were cleaned out. In Beijing, there’s a large printing factory with thousands of workers, called the Xinhua Printing House. It prints banknotes, books, leaflets. During the era of the Beiyang warlords, it served Yuan Shikai; after the Northern Expedition, it served the Kuomintang; when the Japanese invaded, it served the Japanese; after Japan surrendered, it again served the Kuomintang; and after we defeated the Kuomintang, it served us. You see, a veteran of five dynasties, never cleaned out, full of all sorts of shady characters inside. Almost all factories nationwide are like this. Most of the rural areas across the country also have their people: landlord elements, rich peasant elements, Kuomintang elements. University professors, middle school teachers, primary school teachers, almost all recruited from the Kuomintang, never touched. Do you say it’s okay not to carry out this cleanup?

We have a group of people who criticized the Communist Party in Kuomintang newspapers, published self-confessions, and followed Chiang Kai-shek — people like Liu Shaoqi, Peng Zhen, Lu Dingyi. Peng Zhen was in charge of Beijing and also part of the Central Secretariat. Lu Dingyi was also a Kuomintang member. Has he himself admitted it?

Zhou: Admitted it, he wrote it in his own hand. Moreover, there is also supporting evidence.

Chairman: He was in charge of the Propaganda Department. An Ziwen, the head of the Organization Department, was also a Kuomintang member. As for Deng Xiaoping, he was somewhat different from them; no such problems were found with him.

So, I say we have at most only half of Beijing.

Our former Chief of General Staff, Luo Ruiqing, was a Party member who had never actually joined the Communist Party.

Lin: A fake Party member.

Chairman: Never joined the Party, just pretended to. China has a huge population, and many affairs, it's extremely complex, we few people can do nothing about it. Whether it's covert struggle or open strife, we can't outmaneuver them. But if we mobilize the masses, there’s nothing they can do. Our foreign friends just don’t understand this. They say, "What are you people up to? One day you topple Zhou Enlai, the next day Ye Jianying, and the day after Li Xiannian." Now it’s clear, there’s that little clique, a secret little faction called the "May 16th" Corps, seizing this opportunity to snatch power. So, some things we didn’t understand either—why one day topple Zhou Enlai, the next day Li Xiannian, and the day after topple Ye Jianying, Chen Yi, Nie Rongzhen, Zhu De, Chen Yun, all these old comrades had to be toppled. Later we came to learn that it was mainly their doing. We didn’t even understand it ourselves—do you still understand it?

Le Duan: To be honest, we didn’t understand it. Our Politburo comrades didn’t quite understand it either, even Chairman Ho Chi Minh said he didn’t get it.

Chairman: Now, gradually, one can come to understand.

Le Duan: Yes.

Chairman: There was also a Red Guard leaflet criticizing Comrade Kim Il-sung. I haven’t read that leaflet myself—have you?

Zhou: I’ve seen it.

Chairman: It caused the Korean comrades to get nervous, too. Some people wanted to go over to your place to join the army.

In every province and every county, they’ve split into two factions, engaging in armed struggles. We said, "Struggle with words, not weapons," but they insisted on armed conflict. Armed conflict it is then—go ahead and fight. Only now do we understand that there were bad elements pulling the strings behind the scenes. At that time, we said it had become a full-scale civil war. The newspapers just didn’t publish it. A full-scale civil war, its fundamental nature being the struggle between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party, the continuation of that struggle. It hurt some good people, too, but on the whole, the issues have been largely clarified. The schools had no classes for four years. I said, the Earth still turns regardless.

Zhou: And the satellites still went up to heaven as usual.

Chairman: Old professors still must be protected, even if they were with the Kuomintang—once the issues are clarified, that’s enough. They still should be given a salary, allowed to teach, to write articles. This is called "criticize first, then utilize." If we don’t utilize them, we have no one. The problems have been clarified, and they’re willing to reform, too! For the elderly, those over seventy, the sick—that’s "criticize first, then support." Support them, meaning even if they don’t do any work, give them food. If you don’t support them, they have no way out.

During the French Revolution, Napoleon did some good deeds, but later he was no good, later he became the representative of the big bourgeoisie. Washington also played a role in history. That’s why Americans brag, saying the revolution came first in America, then France, Russia third, and we in the East are even further behind. According to historical sequence, it’s indeed true. Washington’s contributions and those of his peers cannot be erased. Napoleon turned some countries in Europe into large nation-states, which also had an effect—Germany, Italy, originally divided into many small states.

Zhou: Grand duchies, small duchies.

Chairman: The boasting’s pretty much done.

Le Duan: When I returned from Korea, Chairman Mao told me that the three Indochinese countries in Southeast Asia would definitely achieve victory first. After I returned home, I reported it to Uncle Ho and the comrades in the Politburo. Now, the truth is becoming increasingly clear. When the U.S. seized Souphanouvong in Laos, the Laotian people rose up; when they killed our people in South Vietnam, the people there rose up; now in Cambodia, after driving Sihanouk away, the people have also risen up.

Chairman: It is indeed so. I also told you: Unless the Americans reach China’s borders, and unless you invite us, we will not dispatch troops.

Le Duan: We thought the same way—when we still had the capacity to fight, we also wanted the rear area to be more stable. China serves as the great rear base for our Vietnam in fighting the U.S. Therefore, we once issued instructions that even if our aircraft came under attack, we should not land at Chinese airports.

Chairman: That’s fine, we’re not afraid. If the Americans want to strike the "sanctuaries" of the Vietnamese air force, let them come.

Le Duan: Although we said that, we still have to rely on you. At that time, you had several divisions in Vietnam shooting down American planes just the same.

Chairman: Exactly. The Americans are simply afraid to fight, nothing else. Negotiations can be held—not that they can’t be—but the main thing should be fighting. Who sabotaged the two Geneva Conferences? Both you and we honestly abide by them, but they refuse to honor them! It’s even better that they refuse.

So now, Soviet Premier Kosygin, when he speaks, also has no choice but to say that if an international conference is to be convened, Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia must be consulted. Many of their current leaders I’m not familiar with, don’t know them. Premier Kosygin, I do know him, I’ve spoken with him. The Western newspapers are always fabricating rumors about them, saying how there’s internal discord. I can’t figure it out either. I’ve heard that the common people are somewhat interested in this leader Kosygin.

Le Duan: We’ve also heard that.

Chairman: You’ve heard that too? Seems to me Stalin has come alive again.

The main trend in the world is revolution, encompassing the entire world. The possibility of the great powers launching a world war exists, but only because they have a few more atomic bombs, no one dares to act. It’s mainly the two major powers. Nowadays they say three major powers—China doesn’t count. China’s atomic weapons have just begun research, still at the research stage. What’s there to fear? China has a large population, and they are afraid of that. But we are also afraid, because a large population means many mouths to feed and many bodies to clothe—that’s a whole host of problems. So we’re also now studying birth control, to make the population a bit smaller.

No more talk. Aren’t you going to treat him to a meal?

Zhou: We’ve already done so.

Le Duan: Right now, the anti-imperialist spirit across the world is very strong. Among these anti-imperialist forces, the strongest is still China’s strength. Therefore, people all over the world hope for Chairman Mao’s good health. Today, we are very happy to see Chairman Mao in good health. The oppressed peoples of the whole world are very happy, too.

Chairman: Thank you. I’m no longer fit, soon to see God. The world belongs to them, it all goes to you. I’m following in Chairman Ho’s footsteps.

Lin Biao: Chairman Mao is still very healthy.

Zhou: Sihanouk even said, Chairman Mao’s good health is the happiness of the people of the world, including the Cambodian people. That sentiment was genuine.

Lin Biao: The Chairman living into his eighties or even nineties is entirely possible.

Le Duan: We are also expressing our genuine feelings. Because Chairman Mao said, the 700 million Chinese people are the strong backing of the Vietnamese people, and the Americans are very afraid. This is very important.

Chairman: What’s there to fear? When they attack others, can’t I even serve as a rear base? They send hundreds of thousands of naval, ground, and air forces to bully the Vietnamese people, and China can’t even serve as a rear base? Which law has that provision?

Le Duan: The U.S. says it can mobilize 12 million troops, yet it can only dispatch 500,000 to Vietnam. If they were to cross further, they’d be afraid.

Zhou: They’re also afraid of China’s large population.

Chairman: There’s one thing a large population isn’t afraid of—fight, just fight. Anyway, I have nothing to do with you. You’ve taken my Taiwan, I haven’t occupied your Long Island. There I go bragging again.

Le Duan: Once again, we express our heartfelt gratitude to Chairman Mao.