Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): When was the last time I saw you?
Le Duan (hereinafter referred to as Le): In 1964. We were very happy to see Chairman Mao
in good health. The current situation in Vietnam and Indochina is rather complicated, and
there are some difficulties.
Mao: Every country has difficulties, including the Soviet Union and the United States.
Le Duan: We desperately need Chairman Mao's guidance. If our Central Committee and the
Politburo knew that Chairman Mao was giving us feedback on our work, they would be very
pleased.
Mao: You are doing an excellent job, and you are getting better and better.
Le Duan: We are doing our best. We are able to do this well because we are following the
three points Chairman Mao once taught us: First, do not be afraid of the enemy; second,
defeat them one by one; and third, fight a protracted war.
Mao: Yes, a protracted war. You should be prepared for a protracted war, but wouldn't it be
better if it were shorter?
Who is really afraid of whom? Are you Vietnamese, Cambodians, and the people of
Southeast Asia afraid of American imperialism, or is American imperialism afraid of you?
This is a question worthy of consideration and study. Or is it that the big countries fear the
small ones, becoming panic-stricken at the slightest sign of trouble? In the 1964 Gulf of
Tonkin incident [2], you tricked them, but you didn't intend to attack the US Navy. In fact,
you didn't really attack them, but they got nervous, saying Vietnamese torpedo boats were
coming and opened fire. Later, the Americans themselves couldn't tell whether this was true
or not. Journalists across the country were certain it was a false alarm. Since the war had
already started, it had to be fought. It was beneficial to the arms dealers. [Since then],
American presidents have slept very little each night. As we've already said, Nixon's [3] main
focus was on dealing with Vietnam.
Now there's another person, Prince Sihanouk. He's not easy to mess with either. If you mess
with him, he'll jump out and start cursing.
I think some of our embassies need to be rectified. Some of our Chinese embassies exhibit a
great power chauvinism, focusing too much on others' shortcomings and ignoring the overall
situation. Who was the last Chinese ambassador to Vietnam?



Zhou Enlai (hereinafter referred to as Zhou): Zhu Qiwen.
Mao: Zhu Qiwen and you had a very bad relationship. Actually, Zhu Qiwen was a Kuomintang
member and was planning to flee abroad. We didn't know he was a Kuomintang member.
Since you were dealing with the Kuomintang, why wouldn't he cause trouble for you? We
didn't know then, but we were displeased when we saw the telegrams he sent back.
Le: We Vietnamese people hold Chairman Mao's kindness in our hearts. During the nine-year war against the French, without the support of the Chinese Communist Party and
Chairman Mao, we would not have been able to achieve victory. Why were we able to
persevere in this protracted war, especially in the south? Why did we dare to continue this
long-term struggle? It was primarily because we relied on Chairman Mao's writings.
Mao: Not necessarily.
Le: Of course, that's true. We also need to be adept at applying it in the actual circumstances
of Vietnam.
Mao: You have your own creativity. How can you say you don't have creativity or
experience? Ngo Dinh Diem killed 160,000 people. I heard the report, and I don't know if it's
accurate, but I know that over 100,000 were killed.
Le: Yes, 160,000 people were killed, and many more were imprisoned.
Mao: I think that's good. You come to kill me, so why can't I kill you?
Le: Exactly. In 1969 alone, we killed and wounded 610,000 enemies, 230,000 of whom were
Americans.
Mao: The Americans were under-allocated their manpower because they were spread too
thinly across the globe. So, when their men were killed, they were heartbroken. The loss of
tens of thousands of people was a major event for them. As for you Vietnamese, whether
North or South Vietnamese, I believe that death is inevitable.
Le: Our current fighting style results in very few casualties. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able
to hold out for long.
Mao: Yes. I'm afraid Laos will be a little more difficult. Are there any Laotians in China?
Zhou: Yes, a few.
Mao: Where do they live?
Zhou: In Yunnan Province, on the border with Laos.
Mao: In Xishuangbanna?
Huang Yongsheng: There are some in Xishuangbanna as well.
Zhou: Our Zhuang people are very similar to them.



Mao: When we win the battle in Laos, we can recruit some Zhuang people from Guangxi and
some Dai people from Yunnan. The Zhuang are very good fighters. In the past, warlords Bai
Chongxi and Li Zongren relied on the Zhuang. How many Zhuang people are there now?
Eight million?
Zhou: There are more now, over ten million.
Mao: This is Wei Guoqing's [4] clan, but he himself denies it. I once asked him what ethnic
group he belonged to. A minority ethnic group, right? He said he was Han. Later, he
admitted he was Zhuang.
Zhou: The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom's warriors were all very skilled fighters, and some of
them were Zhuang.
Mao: Some of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom's troops were from Guangxi.
Le: The Nung people of Vietnam were also very good fighters. They and the Zhuang people
of Guangxi belong to the same ethnic group.
Mao: Southeast Asia is a hornet's nest. The people of Southeast Asia are awakening day by
day. Some pacifists think it's just roosters getting aggressive. How can there be so many
roosters? Now even hens are aggressive!
Le: If we don't fight, there's no way out.
Mao: Yes, we have to fight. You've forced them into a corner, you're bullying them!
Le: Cambodians and Laotians are both Buddhists, so they're not easy to fight. Now they're
fighting.
Mao: Exactly. Don't say Buddhists aren't militant. China also believes in Buddhism. The
Xinhai Revolution lasted seventeen years, and then there was internal fighting between two
factions. This educated the people. Then came the Northern Expedition, which led to the
Red Army. Then the Japanese invaded China. After the Japanese surrendered, Chiang Kaishek fought us. He quit after less than four years and fled to Taiwan. He now claims in the
United Nations that he represents all of China. He had a very close relationship with several
of us. I met Chiang Kai-shek several times, including at the Kuomintang Central Committee
plenary session in Guangzhou. I am a Kuomintang member, a cross-party member. I am both
a member of the Communist Party Central Committee and an alternate member of the
Kuomintang Central Committee. At that time, several of us participated. Our Prime Minister
was Chiang Kai-shek's director of the Political Department of the Whampoa Military
Academy and the acting Party representative of Chiang Kai-shek's First Army. Comrade Lin
Biao, needless to say, was Chiang Kai-shek's student, having spent nine months at
Whampoa. In China, there are very few people of the older generation who have not had
dealings with him.



Le: Recently, Nixon declared that the United States had never been defeated in the past 190
years. This implies that he doesn't want to be defeated by Vietnam this time either.
Mao: Never been defeated?
Le: Actually, it has been defeated several times. In China, Korea, and the Indochina War
against France, it spent 80 percent of its military expenditure on the French, yet it was still
defeated.
Mao: Exactly! The first point I just made is not to be afraid of imperialism. Who is really
afraid of whom? Small countries and some small ethnic groups have this problem. Try it
slowly, and after a few years, you'll understand.
Mao: ...At that time, I told you that if the Americans didn't come to the Chinese border, we
wouldn't send troops unless you invited us.
Le: We thought so too. While we still had the strength to fight, we wanted our "rear area" to
be more stable. When we, the Vietnamese people, fought the Americans, China was our
"rear area." Therefore, we once issued an order that even if our aircraft were attacked, they
should not land at Chinese airports.
Mao: That's fine, we're not afraid. If the US Air Force wants to attack the Vietnamese Air
Force's "safe haven," let them do it.
Le: Although we issued such an order, we still needed your support. At that time, the several
divisions you sent to Vietnam also attacked American aircraft.
Mao: That's right. The Americans are afraid of war; they lack the courage. You can negotiate.
I'm not saying you can't negotiate, but your main focus should be on fighting. Who
sabotaged the two Geneva Conferences? You and we both honestly abided by the
agreements, but they didn't do anything! It would have been better if they didn't. Therefore,
even Soviet Premier Kosygin, in his public speeches, had to say that any international
conference would require consultation with Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. I'm not familiar
with many of their current leaders. I know Kosygin and have spoken with him. Western
newspapers are always spreading rumours about them, saying there's discord among their
leadership. I don't understand either. I hear the people are quite interested in Kosygin as a
leader.
Le: We've heard that, too.
Mao: You've heard about it, too? I think Stalin has come alive again. The main trend in the
world today is revolution, and that includes the entire world. The possibility of a world war
between major powers exists, but with the addition of a few more atomic bombs, no one
dares to act. It's mainly two major powers; now people are talking about the three major
powers, but China doesn't count. China's atomic weapons research is still in its infancy, and



it's still in the research stage. What's so scary about that? China has a large population, so
they're afraid of it. But we're afraid too, because a large population needs food and clothing,
which creates a lot of problems. That's why we're also studying birth control to reduce the
population.
Le: We were able to continue our fight because Chairman Mao said that the 700 million
Chinese people were the staunch support of the Vietnamese people, and the United States
was afraid. This was very important.
Mao: What is there to be afraid of? You invade others, and I can't even serve as their rear
support? You send hundreds of thousands of navy, army, and air forces to bully the
Vietnamese people, and China can't even serve as their rear support? Which law stipulates
this?
Le: The Americans said they could mobilize 12 million troops, but they could only send
500,000 troops to Vietnam. If they crossed this limit, they would be afraid.
Zhou: They were afraid of the Chinese because they were numerous.
Mao: Even if we have a large number of people, we still have nothing to fear. Let's fight.
Anyway, I have nothing to do with you. You occupied my Taiwan, but I did not occupy your
Long Island [5].

[1] This is part of a conversation between Mao Zedong and Le Duan, First Secretary of the
Communist Party of Vietnam. Le Duan (1917-1986) was a Vietnamese proletarian
revolutionary. After Ho Chi Minh's death, Le Duan assumed leadership of North Vietnam and
subsequently unified Vietnam. He was then First Secretary of the Communist Party of
Vietnam.
[2] The Gulf of Tonkin Incident occurred in late July 1964, when US warships, in coordination
with the Saigon Navy, carried out Operation 34A, a naval attack on North Vietnam. On
August 1, the destroyer USS Maddox of the US Seventh Fleet, intruding into the territorial
waters of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam to gather intelligence, engaged in a firefight
with the Vietnamese navy the next day, sinking a Vietnamese torpedo boat. The US
government quickly issued a statement claiming the US Navy had been provoked. On the
4th, the US announced that US warships had been attacked by torpedo boats from the
Democratic Republic of Vietnam, the so-called "Gulf of Tonkin Incident." Using this as an
excuse, on the 5th, the US Air Force bombed Nghe An, Hong Gai, and Thanh Hoa areas in
Northern Vietnam. On July 7th, the US Congress passed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution,
authorizing the president to use armed force in Southeast Asia. This incident marked a
significant milestone in the US's strategy of escalation during the Vietnam War, expanding
the conflict to both North and South Vietnam.



[3] Nixon, then President of the United States.
[4] Wei Guoqing was then the director of the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region
Revolutionary Committee.
[5] Long Island is located off the Atlantic coast of North America and is administratively part
of the U.S. state of New York. Long Island is 190 kilometres long and approximately 20 to 30
kilometres wide, jutting out from New York Harbor into the North Atlantic Ocean.