(Not reviewed by the speaker)

(November 28, 1968)

Time: 9:10 p.m. to 11:00 p.m., November 28, 1968

Location: Room 118, Great Hall of the People

Participants: Zhou Enlai, Chen Boda, Kang Sheng, Yao Wenyuan

Interpreter: Ji Chaozhu

Recorder: Lü Huixiang

Chairman Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as the Chairman): Did you come at this time last year?
Hill (hereinafter referred to as Hill): Yes, I came at this time last year.

Chairman: At that time, the workers in Beijing were not yet very united. There were bad elements stirring up trouble among them, splitting one factory into two factions.

Hill: The situation has now developed greatly.

Chairman: Right. Once the bad elements are removed, things become easier to handle.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman: We had never cleaned up these factories. The schools were under the rule of bourgeois intellectuals, and a considerable portion of the countryside was also ruled by bad elements. It seems that engaging in revisionism is not so difficult after all.

For example, within one of our communes, a production brigade may have several hundred households, or even several thousand. Take two thousand households, with a population of ten thousand, forming one Party branch. If the Party branch secretary is no good, the work of the brigade is hard to manage.

Did you visit two factories in Beijing?

Hill: Yes.

Chairman: Wasn’t the Party committee secretary of that factory a bad element?

Hill: I don’t remember exactly how they described it. The leadership personnel have been replaced.

Chairman: (To Yao Wenyuan) Have you been to Xinhua Printing Factory?

Yao Wenyuan (hereinafter referred to as Yao): Yes, I have. The factory director and the Party committee secretary were both no good.

Chairman: This factory has 3,000 workers, and with their dependents, 10,000 people. During the Qing dynasty, it printed currency. During the period of the Northern Warlords, it served the Northern Warlords. When Japan took over, it served Japan. When the Kuomintang took over, it served the Kuomintang. After we took over, it served us for over a decade. Many of the people there did not change; the main personnel did not change. They were still people from the late Qing dynasty and the Northern Warlords period.

Zhou Enlai (hereinafter referred to as Zhou): Now we have added an additional portion of workers; we have expanded a part of it.

Chairman: I mainly mean that the responsible personnel have basically not been changed in the past. This is the social foundation for revisionism in China. These problems cannot be clearly understood without mobilizing the masses, without thoroughly mobilizing the workers. And even that is not enough; it is necessary to send People’s Liberation Army personnel to help, only then can the problems be solved.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman: I want to ask you a question. Do you have this feeling: What exactly are the imperialists going to do? That is, do they want to start a world war or not? Or will they hold off for now and start one later? From your contacts with your country and European countries, do you have this feeling?

Hill: I think they haven’t made up their minds yet. They are now facing tremendous difficulties. It seems they won’t start a war for a while. At least, they don’t have the strength right now to launch a war on this world scale. Most people hold this view. But on the other hand, because they have lost their ability to judge, there is a danger of a major conflict breaking out. However, on the whole, they still can’t start a big war for the time being.

Chairman: When it comes to fighting a war, the two big powers, the United States and the Soviet Union, can do so. Next are the defeated nations like Japan, West Germany, and Italy. As for Britain and France, they are not very keen on fighting.

Zhou: De Gaulle’s military budget has been reduced somewhat.

Chairman: Even Japan and West Germany don’t seem to want to fight now. West Germany wants to swallow East Germany and unify Germany; Japan wants to regain Okinawa. Actually, Japan is not yet independent.

Zhou: The United States controls them militarily, with so many military bases.

Chairman: The situation after the Second World War seems somewhat different from that after the First World War. I don’t know if these views are correct. After the Second World War, the defeated nations could not break away from the victor nations—not only in terms of finance and investment, but also in international and military affairs. This is different from the situation after the First World War. After the First World War, Hitler rose up after a few years.

Zhou: He didn’t recognize the Treaty of Versailles.

Chairman: He didn’t recognize the Treaty of Versailles. At that time, the workers, intellectuals, and students in those countries still listened to their governments. Such a huge Communist Party in Germany collapsed just like that.

Zhou: The Italian Communist Party collapsed even earlier.

Chairman: The Social Democratic Party also collapsed. They established the National Socialist Party and the Storm Troopers.

This United States, following the pattern of the past two world wars, always waits for other countries to fight first. It only steps in after they’ve fought for two years; only then does it enter the war.

In Korea and Vietnam, the United States has borne the brunt directly. In Europe, it still has 200,000 troops, mainly in Germany. In Vietnam, there are 500,000; in Korea, two divisions, over 70,000. There are also troops in Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines, and Thailand. Its forces are already very dispersed. It has stretched out both hands—one in Europe, one in Asia—fighting small wars. Of course, the capitalists still have their calculations.

Zhou: They can make money.

Chairman: If there’s no war for a long time, the capitalists won’t be happy, including the Australian capitalists. They also hope to contribute some troops, though not very many.

Kang Sheng (hereinafter referred to as Kang): Only four battalions and twenty-two aircraft.

Zhou: They contribute some troops, and the United States gives them some money.

Chairman: They can still make some money from it.

Hill: Right now, Australian capitalists are not making enough money and are quite dissatisfied.

Chairman: If they’re dissatisfied, they’ll quarrel with the United States, asking for more money.

How did that Holt drown while swimming?

Hill: The seaside there is quite treacherous; many people have drowned there before. He was being adventurous.

Chairman: Well, that’s not bad.

Hill: This is a good way to deal with them. (All laugh)

Chairman: What’s the name of the current prime minister?

Hill: Gorton.

Chairman: That name sounds nice—Gorton.

Hill: It only sounds nice.

Chairman: Your name also sounds nice—Hill.

Hill: The Chairman is the first person to say my name sounds nice.

Chairman: It’s just nice. Isn’t it Hill, meaning a small mountain?

Hill: Yes, a small mountain.

Chairman: Might as well change it to Mountain. I’ve read the articles you wrote. I’m not as diligent as you; I’m very lazy and haven’t revised any of my own things. Some things should be revised. For example, when publishing for the second time, there should be some revisions; when publishing for the third time, there should again be revisions.

Some articles don’t need to be so long. It was still Comrade Lin Biao who invented a method by compiling quotations.

Kang: The Greek-language edition of the Chairman’s quotations was translated by them (referring to Hill and his associates).

Chairman: Oh, it was translated by them.

Confucius’s *Analects* is a book of quotations. So are Buddhist scriptures which contain quotations.

Zhou: The Diamond Sutra.

Chairman: I am a lazy person; I’ve never read the Bible, just can’t get into it. I don’t know why; whenever I pick it up, I don’t feel like reading it.

Hill: I completely understand. I often have the same feeling—just can’t get into it. But when I was a child, I was forced to read some of the Bible.

Chairman: Well then, that’s good. Things you’re forced to read do have some benefits.

Some people say I’ve never made mistakes in my life. Actually, when I was a child, I studied Confucianism, which was feudalism. Later, when I went to school, I studied capitalism and thought figures like Washington and Napoleon were extraordinary, and praised the likes of Cromwell of England, Marshal Wellington, and Admiral Nelson to the skies.

In Khrushchev’s time, he often boasted that war was not inevitable, but now they don’t boast about it anymore. To say war is not inevitable actually means it can be avoided. In recent years, they haven’t talked about this issue. Have they stopped talking about it?

Kang: They don’t talk about this issue at all now. They sent troops into Czechoslovakia. At the Fifth Congress of Poland, they didn’t talk about this issue either.

Chairman: Looking at it this way, they are preparing to expand war—whether it’s the United States, the Soviet Union, or other countries. Judging from these circumstances, it seems war is going to break out. I’m not sure about this issue, so I wanted to consult you. I won’t force you to answer this question quickly. Can you observe this issue? In a year’s time, when we talk again, we can discuss it. But we must also take into account the awakening of the people.

The United States halted the bombing of North Vietnam. The American troops in Vietnam were very happy and even cheered. This shows their morale isn’t all that high. Is the morale of American soldiers that high? Is the morale of Soviet soldiers that high? Is the morale of French, British, German, and Japanese soldiers that high?

The student unrest in capitalist countries is a new event in European history. Because students in capitalist countries do not, as a rule, stir up trouble. Now there is student unrest mainly in Europe, the United States, Latin America, and Japan.

Is there unrest in your country?

Hill: There is.

Chairman: For our country, with regard to the revolutionary movements of the people of the world—the workers’ movements, the student movements, and the development and growth of genuine Marxist political parties—things will be much better in another five years. Japan surrendered in 1945; it’s been 23 years now. In another five years, that’ll make 28 years. Twenty-eight years without war? Actually, since the Second World War, various wars have never ceased.

As Lenin said, capitalism means war. It simply cannot be separated from war.

There are two big powers in the world. They not only have conventional weapons but also atomic bombs. This thing is not easy to handle, and they themselves know it. Khrushchev’s theory was that if atomic bombs are used, the earth will be destroyed and there will be no victor. The United States also says this. These two big powers are nuclear powers. Our country can still be said to be a non-nuclear country; such a tiny amount of nuclear weapons doesn’t count. If there is a war, it can only be fought with conventional weapons. Because we are neither the chief of staff for the United States nor for the Soviet Union, we cannot figure out what they really want to do. We can only judge from certain manifestations. The populations of these two countries are roughly equal. If they really want to fight a big war, they will still feel a shortage of manpower. Now, if they fight a medium-scale war, like the one being fought in Vietnam today, the United States already feels the shortage of manpower, especially pilots.

(To Chen Boda and Kang Sheng) What did you talk about with him?

Kang: We discussed the 12th Plenary Session, our preparations for the 9th National Congress, and also some Marxist parties and groups in the world—such as the Stalin group in the Soviet Union and some new Marxist-Leninist small groups in Czechoslovakia and Poland. We also talked about the Chairman’s discussion with the Italian comrades on parliamentary elections. Comrade Hill was particularly interested in the Chairman’s views on “building up someone great and special” and absolute authority. He said it was very enlightening to him, as this issue was also touched upon when he talked with the Chairman last year.

Chairman: The so-called “building up someone great and special” was mainly carried out by our former acting chief of the general staff, Yang Chengwu. He engaged in “building up someone great and special”—in reality, building up himself great and special—promoting the theory of multiple centers. As for so-called absolute authority, I don’t believe such a thing exists on Earth. Marx, Engels, and Lenin seldom talked about absolute authority; they only talked about absolute truth. What is called absolute truth is nothing other than the sum total of relative truths of various eras, and that is called absolute truth. This is what they have said, and various philosophers have said it too. I have said before that I have never seen a “house” nor eaten a “fruit.” What I see are only this Great Hall of the People or the Beijing Hotel where you stay—things like that. Apart from these, there is no so-called “house” that can be seen. And neither have I eaten a “fruit”; perhaps you have, but I haven’t. Neither have I eaten a “peach,” nor a “pear,” nor an “apple”—an apple from this province, an apple from this country, an apple from that country, they’re all apples. “Fruit” is an abstract concept. Of course, it won’t do to not speak of abstract concepts. So, according to habit, one can say one is eating fruit and living in a house. Lenin said, the individual is one aspect or part of the universal. For example, Comrade Hill, your name is universal; there are Hills everywhere.

How did all your surnames originate?

Hill: British custom often dictates that you take the name of the place where you live. For example, “Hill”—possibly such people lived in the hills. Or “Mill,” which means a workshop; people associated with a workshop were called Mill.

Chairman: In your country, are there people surnamed Water?

Hill: There are.

Chairman: In China, there are people surnamed Water, and also people surnamed Mountain. There are those surnamed Jin (Gold), but none surnamed Yin (Silver); foreigners have those surnamed Yin (Silver). China also has those surnamed Tian (Field).

Zhou: And also those surnamed Xi (Tin).

Hill: This is somewhat similar to British customs.

Chairman: Do you have people surnamed Stone over there?

Hill: There are.

Chairman: China and foreign countries are more or less the same. Many surnames come from ancient feudal states. For example, my surname, Mao, comes from a small state in a dynasty over two thousand years ago. Comrade Zhou Enlai’s surname comes from the Zhou Dynasty. (All laugh) Your surname (pointing to Yao Wenyuan), Yao, is the descendant of Emperor Shun—a descendant of an emperor. (All laugh) Actually, whether that emperor existed is very much in doubt.

Yao: It’s a myth.

Chairman: There's no evidence for so-called Emperor Yao, Emperor Shun, or Yu the Great. Probably there were some clan tribes around that time.

Zhou: They evolved from legends into archetypal figures.

Chairman: I heard that the Zhou dynasty had only a little over three thousand slaves, yet it defeated the Shang kingdom of King Zhou, which had hundreds of thousands of slaves.

Look at how we've shifted from the issue of war to the issue of history? (All laugh)

Hill: Anyway, it’s pleasant to talk about it.

Chairman: Have you ever been to the United States?

Hill: No, they don’t welcome people like me and won’t give me a visa.

Chairman: Is it possible to go to Europe?

Hill: Yes, it’s possible.

Chairman: Do Australians need a visa to go to the United Kingdom?

Hill: They didn’t before, but now they need a permit. It mainly relates to labour laws and labour issues. For example, if I wanted to go to the UK, I would first have to go to the British High Commissioner in Australia to get a stamp, to prove what I intend to do in the UK.

Chairman: So what would you say?

Hill: The previous two times I went, I had legitimate reasons for legitimate business. As long as you say you're going as a traveler and the stay is limited, it's completely fine. This in itself illustrates the decline of the British Empire. In the past, travel was completely free; now it has changed.

Chairman: I heard that to solve employment problems, Britain sends people to Canada, and sometimes to the United States. Are people sometimes sent to your country?

Hill: There are quite a number of British immigrants to Australia.

Chairman: I'm not talking about immigration; I mean people being sent there now.

Hill: People still go now, but the British government doesn't send them; they go on their own initiative.

Chairman: The British government just allows them to go.

Hill: Not only allows, but encourages it.

Chairman: To relieve the pressure on employment in their own country. I heard that your country's population has doubled in 30 years, from 6 million to 12 million.

Hill: Yes, that's right.

Chairman: How long does it take to get from your country to Hong Kong?

Hill: It takes over 10 hours by plane. The distance from Australia to Hong Kong is 4,500 miles, which is roughly over 7,000 kilometers.

Chairman: I think this world needs to be unified. There are miles, nautical miles, kilometers, and so many languages. But unifying languages all at once is not easy; it will be easier only when the world is unified. This planet will surely be unified one day.

In the past, many tried to unify the world — for example, the Mongols, Rome in the West, Alexander, Napoleon, the British Empire, and now the United States and the Soviet Union. Hitler also wanted to unify the world, and the Japanese wanted to unify the Pacific, but none succeeded. I see that this possibility has not yet been eliminated. The capitalist system forces the peoples of the world to accept capitalism; that is one way of unification. The second way: the peoples of the world rise in revolution, and then unite together. I think unification can be achieved that way. Now the United States has also created a United Nations. Imperialist or revisionist unification of the world is probably not easy either. Fight a world atomic war, wipe out most of the world's population, and then let the two great powers, the United States and the Soviet Union, unify the world? But these two countries have small populations — once dispersed, they wouldn't be enough. They are also afraid of fighting an atomic bomb war. They are not afraid of wiping out other countries' populations, but they fear wiping out their own. The countries of the second intermediate zone — the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Japan, Italy — are second-tier countries and probably unwilling to fight either. In the end, it will probably still have to follow the path of Marxism: the peoples of all countries will carry out revolutions, and then freely unite. What's the use of keeping distinctions like the U.S. dollar, pound sterling, Australian pound, franc, mark, rouble, and all these differences? Unify them all! The Americans used to talk about cosmopolitanism, but lately it seems they don't talk about it much. In reality, that was also about unifying the world.

I read your article. The influx of American capital into your country has caused a wave of discontent towards the United States.

The Vietnam War differs from the Korean War in one respect: the whole of Europe did not take part. In the Korean War, Britain, France, Turkey, and Belgium all participated.

I will merely pose this topic; I will write about it, and I invite you to write about it too. I will also think it over. Perhaps you could consider the question of the world, the question of war, and the question of war and peace. Is it war, or is it revolution? Will war break out first and then trigger revolution, or can revolution prevent war? In short, the current state of neither fighting a war nor carrying out a revolution will not last much longer.

Is that about all for today?

Hill: Thank you very much!

Chairman: I heard you are leaving tomorrow?

Hill: Yes.

Chairman: I wish you a smooth journey!

Hill: Thank you very much!

I am very grateful to the Chairman and to the Chinese Communist Party for allowing me to visit China again. This visit has been extremely valuable to me, and a great inspiration to our comrades.

Chairman: Valuable?

Hill: Immensely valuable.

I completely agree with the Chairman's views on absolute authority, and I also fully agree with the Chairman's opinion on the phrasing of 'building something up in a big way.' But I feel we have a very important task: to vigorously publicize and apply the Chairman's thought. And in this regard, a few years ago we could not have imagined the significant developments we see today.

Chairman: We are just thinking about compiling a book of quotations from Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Stalin. (To Chen Boda and others) You are working on it. It should not be too long; if it's too long, people won't have time to read it. And not too short; if it's too short, it won't reflect their ideas. For example, take the saying that capitalism means war. That law doesn't seem to be working anymore.

Zhou: It still works. Since the Second World War, small wars haven't stopped.

Hill: Yes, indeed.

Chairman: There have also been big wars, like China's War of Liberation.

Hill: I had debates with the Australian revisionist Sharkey on this matter.

Chairman: After the First World War, there was China's Northern Expedition War and the Ten-Year Agrarian Revolutionary War, as well as the Civil War in Spain.

(To Premier Zhou) What happened to those five individuals, where were they sent?

Zhou: They were sent to Algeria by train.

Chairman: There were five students studying the local language in Morocco. They didn't like these five students and expelled them, sending them to Algeria. Are they at our embassy?

Zhou: They are at our embassy. They (referring to the Moroccan government) are afraid of students.

Chairman: Nowadays, some countries are indeed afraid of students. What’s so frightening about just five students?

Yao: There's also a bit of fear of the Red Guards.

Chairman: I'll stop boasting now.

(The Chairman bids Hill a cordial farewell with a handshake, asks him to send his regards to Wilcox, and personally sees him all the way to his car.)