(Not reviewed by the speaker)

(August 13, 1968)

Time: 5:30 to 7:00 p.m., August 13, 1968

Location: The Great Hall of the People

Participants:

Italian side: Osvaldo Pesce, member of the Political Bureau and Secretary of the Secretariat of the Communist Party of Italy (Marxist-Leninist), and Dino Dini, member of the Political Bureau

Chinese side: Zhou Enlai, Chen Boda, Kang Sheng, Jiang Qing, Yao Wenyuan

Interpreter and note-taker: Yin Yufu

Chairman Mao (hereinafter referred to as Chairman): Is this our first meeting?

Pesce (hereinafter referred to as Pesce): I saw you in 1963 and 1966. Last year, I saw you again atop Tiananmen.

Chairman: Since we never spoke, I don’t remember clearly.

Pesce: First, on behalf of our Party and the Italian revolutionaries, I extend greetings to you. We see you are in good health. We feel very fortunate to see you.

Chairman: (smiling) Each day is worse than the last.

Pesce: To us, you look very healthy.

Chairman: (smiling) You are only looking at the outward appearance.

Pesce: I have come to China for three consecutive years, all during the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, and I have learned a great deal. Seeing you again today in good health makes me feel very fortunate.

Chairman: The days of happiness lie in the future, in the victory of the entire revolutionary movement in Europe. Your country has much experience in revolutionary movements, especially since World War II. Togliatti pursued a revisionist line, and this kind of thing also exists in China. As early as 1927, a revisionist line held sway within the Chinese Party. From the winter of 1937 to the summer of 1938, a revisionist trend emerged again. Now is the third time, a revisionist trend represented by Liu Shaoqi. Without mass movements, it is impossible to eliminate its influence. Social democracy has always existed as a faction. Some say that China has no social democratic party; formally, one could say so, but in reality, it does exist, as a faction within the Communist Party. This kind of faction within the Party has never been interrupted.

Pesce: Our Party fully supports the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution that you personally initiated and led.

Chairman: Imperialism, revisionism, and reactionaries of various countries, as well as people like Chiang Kai-shek in China, along with revisionist elements, all vehemently oppose it. Thus, the battle lines are clearly drawn.

The revisionist world is not unified; it is deeply split. Longo’s party is not unified either.

I have heard that your Party does not participate in elections. That is very good. As long as you can persist, it is good. Even when your Party grows stronger and gains broader support from the masses in the future, do not engage in elections. When Marx was alive, he did not engage in elections. Before Marx’s death, Germany had a law restricting social democracy. After Marx’s death and just before Engels’ death, Germany repealed that law. Engels summed up the experience, saying that barricades were no longer applicable and that elections should be pursued; the Social Democratic Party’s vote share had indeed increased. But what is the situation now? The Social Democratic Party of Germany, the French Socialist Party, the French Communist Party, the Italian Communist Party, and the British Labour Party all participate in elections, and later they all degenerated into revisionist parties, bourgeois parties.

Europe is the birthplace of capitalism, where the bourgeoisie always employs various methods to influence the workers, to influence social democratic and communist parties. In economically backward China, in the cities, the bourgeoisie also uses various methods to influence the workers, even though our Party has never participated in elections. Whether you engage in elections or not, the bourgeoisie will always influence the Communist Party. China does not engage in elections, yet it is still influenced. The faction of Liu Shaoqi is by no means weak in strength. Two years ago, we could not get involved in the affairs of Beijing; it was like a place where a needle could not be inserted and water could not be spilled. I am referring to the areas ruled by the old Beijing Municipal Party Committee. Central departments, such as the Propaganda Department and the Organization Department, have now all been overthrown. Today, they have all been overthrown. If you participate in elections, the bourgeoisie will try to buy you off; if you do not participate in elections, the bourgeoisie can still buy you off. Parties with parliamentarians have become revisionist, and parties without parliamentarians have also become revisionist. Sharkey’s party has no parliamentarians in parliament, yet it still engages in revisionism. In Europe, the British Communist Party once had one seat; now it has none, yet it still engages in revisionism. The Communist Party of the USA participates in every presidential election; it has no parliamentarians, yet it still engages in revisionism. Are there people within your Party who advocate participating in elections?

Pesce: In the most recent elections, our Party adopted a stance opposing the parliamentary road and maintained that stance after the elections. When this stance was discussed within the Party, a very few individuals advocated participating in elections, which is natural because they had not completely shaken off revisionist influence. However, they also disagreed with the method used by the Italian revisionists to participate in elections. Among the leaders of our Party, no one advocates participating in elections; at the grassroots level, a very few individuals do advocate participating in elections.

Chairman: Use historical experience to persuade them. Communist parties have been engaging in elections for decades. Over the past 70 to 80 years, not a single party has seized power through electoral methods. One must not forget the experience of the October Revolution. The October Revolution did not succeed through elections; it was won through battle. Having gone through two world wars, the European people ought to have been educated.

Pesce: The Chinese Revolution also seized power through struggle under your leadership.

Chairman: Some of our comrades fought wars their entire lives.

Pesce: The Republic of San Marino within Italian territory came to power through elections, but later the bourgeoisie was not willing to accept that and snatched power back.

Chairman: What is the population of San Marino?

Pesce: 30,000. There are also a few other small states in Europe, such as Andorra, Liechtenstein, and Monaco. These are remnants of feudalism.

Chairman: They have also become capitalist. Formally feudal, they are essentially states ruled by the bourgeoisie. Britain still has a queen. Italy had a king before, now it does not, but it is still under bourgeois rule. When Mussolini marched on Rome, he preserved the king; he wanted to establish an empire.

Pesce: Mussolini established an empire on paper.

Chairman: The empires of Mussolini and Hitler collapsed simultaneously. The French believe in Catholicism, and so do the Italians. When they fight wars, it is essentially Catholics fighting Catholics, which makes things very difficult for God.

Pesce: The Vatican reaches out to both sides.

Chairman: How big is the Vatican?

Pesce: Very small, 5 square kilometers.

Chairman: Have you been there?

Pesce: We have been there.

Chairman: Can one go there freely?

Pesce: Only a part is freely accessible.

Chairman: Napoleon once imprisoned the Pope. At the beginning of the 19th century, Italy consisted of a dozen states and was unified through war. First, Garibaldi fought northward from Sicily. Later, Napoleon unified the northern part, which was also a contribution. Once Napoleon fell, the various kingdoms became "independent" again one after another. Later, the bourgeoisie eventually flattened all these kingdoms and unified Italy.

Dini (hereinafter referred to as Dini): That was merely the unification of the bureaucratic apparatus. Garibaldi, because he promised and distributed land to the peasants, successfully advanced to Teano. This frightened the Savoy dynasty; Prime Minister Cavour attempted to halt Garibaldi’s advance. Later, a meeting was arranged between Victor Emmanuel II and Garibaldi. The latter compromised, threw away all the gains made, and was ultimately killed at Aspromonte.

Chairman: Your country has relatively close ties with France.

Dini: Yes, for many reasons. First, Napoleon had influence in Italy.

Chairman: Napoleon was Italian.

Dini: He was born in Corsica.

Chairman: Corsica formerly belonged to Italy.

Pesce: Yes. Napoleon established the Cisalpine Republic in Milan, using the tricolor flag. The national flags of today’s Italy and France are both tricolors, very similar. Previously, the Italians regarded Napoleon as a liberator; later, their view of him changed.

Pesce: We must study not only the works of Marx, Engels, and Lenin, but also the works of Chairman Mao.

Chairman: I am a student of theirs. I only applied Marxism-Leninism to the practice of the Chinese Revolution.

Pesce: You have made great contributions to Marxism-Leninism. We want to study your works.

Chairman: I have no works, merely records of historical facts. These may serve as reference for you, but you must still integrate the universal truths of Marxism-Leninism with the specific conditions of your own country. International experience must be studied, but you must create your own theory, form your own experience, only then can revolution succeed. International experience should be noted, but do not mechanically copy foreign experience.

Pesce: You waged a great struggle in China against mechanically copying foreign experience.

Chairman: Every country has such experience—a period during which it learns from foreign experience. Plekhanov and Lenin learned from the experience of European parties, but Lenin still created Russia’s own experience. We suffered greatly from mechanically copying foreign experience. If you study our Party’s experience, you must first study the several times our Party committed Right opportunist errors, several times "Left" opportunist errors, and how our Party overcame those errors. You must sum up the successful and failed experiences of Europe, and the successful and failed experiences of Italy. Speaking of the world, first, do not forget the experience of the October Revolution. Things have their own laws of development, independent of the will of individuals, classes, and political parties. The European social democratic parties turned to the opposite, opposing Marxism, independent of the will of Marx and Engels. The German Social Democratic Party turned to the opposite, onto the path of anti-Marxism. Lenin created the Soviet regime through the October Revolution; later, revisionism emerged, independent of the will of Lenin. The form of the Soviet regime can be used by Lenin and Stalin, as well as by Khrushchev, Brezhnev, and Kosygin. The organizational form of the Communist Party can be used by Lenin and Stalin, as well as by Khrushchev, Brezhnev, and Kosygin. No matter what, it will ultimately proceed onto the path of Marxism-Leninism; this is independent of the will of imperialism, revisionism, and the reactionaries of various countries. It is the working class and the working people who determine the destiny of the world. This principle can be stated in this way.

Today, Europe needs a strong party—not one with a large membership, but one with a correct program, correct tactics, one that maintains ties with the masses and has prestige among them. Now, Marxist-Leninist parties exist in various countries; some have hundreds of members, some thousands. Your Party has several thousand members; the Marxist-Leninist Party in France also has about a thousand. Your Italian Party and the French Party have grown compared to the period of the First International. Back then, there was no party constitution, no party organization; it was simply called an "Association," including trade unions and various factions, such as the Blanquists, Proudhonists, Mazzinists, Lassalleans, and, in the later period, the Russian Bakuninists. Marx criticized all the factions he was allied with. The French Blanquists and Proudhonists were criticized by Marx, and the other factions were also criticized by Marx. At that time, Britain had no Labour Party, only some utopian socialists. Owen was famous. He was a factory owner; later, he gave that up and organized workers’ representative assemblies. The bourgeoisie hated him intensely. Afterwards, he toured around Europe. Among the utopian socialists were also Fourier and Saint-Simon from France, who wrote many works; their utopian theories had a great influence in Europe. Before them, there were also utopians, but Marx and Engels did not mention them. Marxism does not wholly reject them; rather, it inherits their rational elements. Marxism does not wholly reject the ideas of utopian socialism, but critically inherits from them, developing from there Marxist socialism, that is, scientific socialism. Now, among the Red Guards in China, there is a trend of thought that seeks to negate everything old. This trend of thought is incorrect. Marx did not do that.

Let’s end here. When are you leaving?

Pesce: We will stay a few more days.

Chairman: Will you not visit other cities?

Be: We have already visited Harbin. This is not our first time in China. We have toured and visited Shanghai, Guangzhou, Yan'an, Changsha, and Shaoshan. Comrade Dini has also been to Nanjing. Everywhere we went, we felt that China has achieved great accomplishments.

Chairman: Very small, not great.

Be: We feel they are great.

Chairman: China's economy is more backward than your Italy's.

Di: We had the opportunity to meet and interact with Chinese workers and peasants. They know the oppression and exploitation of the old society and deeply love the new society.

Chairman: On this point, people over 30 understand it; people under 30 do not.

Be: We would like to take this opportunity to once again express our gratitude for the political support your Chinese Communist Party, under your leadership, has given to our party. We wish you a long, boundless life.

(Shake hands and bid farewell)

--- Notes

Chairman: Napoleon was a great colonialist. During the dictatorship of the bourgeois right-wing Robespierre, France expanded to the Rhine River basin. At that time, France was completely isolated; Britain opposed, Holland opposed, and Spain, Belgium, and Russia all rose up to oppose the French government and the French Revolution. In Engels’ *Anti-Dühring*, the section "Philosophy of Law" (There is no section titled "Philosophy of Law" in *Anti-Dühring*. Based on the content, it is suspected to be a mistake for the section "Morality and Law. Freedom and Necessity"—note) talks neither about law nor about philosophy. It simply compares Britain, France, and Germany, and compares the areas east and west of the Rhine River in Germany. Napoleon studied the Roman legal code and created his own Napoleonic Code. I have heard of these two legal codes but have not read them. There is no need to read such antiques; it is best to send them to a museum. Do not let the dead lead us, the living, by the nose. However, the works of Marxism and Leninism we must study; these people are our forebears.