(Not reviewed by Chairman Mao)

(August 5, 1968)

Time: 5:00 PM to 6:30 PM, August 5, 1968

Place: The Great Hall of the People

Participants:

Pakistani side—Ambassador to China Sultan, Director-General of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Tabarak Husain, Director of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Farooq, Counsellor of the Embassy in China Zaman

Chinese side—Zhou Enlai, Kang Sheng, Jiang Qing, Chen Yi, Han Nianlong

Interpreter: Ji Chaozhu

Recorder: Li Luye

Chairman Mao: Is this the first time we have met?

Foreign Minister Arshad Husain (hereinafter referred to as Husain): Thank you very much, Your Excellency, for receiving me. This is a great honor for me.

Chairman Mao: Is it the first time for the other friends to meet as well?

(Chairman Mao offers Husain a cigarette)

Husain: I don't smoke, I have already quit.

Chairman Mao: You don't smoke, you are a good person; it is good that you quit smoking. Sometimes when I am sick, I temporarily stop smoking, and when I get better, I smoke again.

Husain: I wish to convey to Your Excellency President Ayub Khan's greetings to Chairman Mao, wishing Chairman Mao good health and a happy life.

Chairman Mao: Thank you very much. Is the President in London now? What illness is he suffering from?

Husain: There is some trouble with his lungs.

Chairman Mao: Is it pneumonia, bronchitis, or what?

Husain: It started as pneumonia, and later there was pulmonary hemorrhage. Fortunately, he has fully recovered his health and resumed work a few months ago. After a comprehensive check-up in London this time, the doctors believe his health has completely recovered.

Chairman Mao: That's good, congratulations to him.

Husain: I must also convey that the President also asked me to greet Madame Jiang Qing.

Jiang Qing: Thank him.

Husain: The President wants me to express thanks to Your Excellency. At a time of our great difficulty, China gave us a large amount of military and economic assistance.

Chairman Mao: It's not a large amount of assistance, it's mutual assistance! It's good enough that you can hold out against India. India is now scheming again, extending its feelers, wanting to make contact and negotiate with us, wanting to send the little Nehru to China. What do you think? Give us some advice.

Husain: I am certain that with the Chairman's wisdom, you will surely be able to make a better decision than my thoughts in response to this action. We have had painful experiences in dealing with the Indians. We can anticipate in advance what they want to do, because we have lived with them for several centuries. You started off well with India; you would later feel more pain and displeasure with the way India acted.

Chairman Mao: We learned a lesson, learned some things.

The Indian leaders are very slippery in their talk. On the one hand, they accept American investment and weapons, and on the other hand, they accept many things from the Soviet Union. Now the Americans want to put some pressure on them, so they want to send someone to China for a visit, to show the Americans. I don't know why Katzenbach did not have good talks with India this time?

Husain: Katzenbach led a strong U.S. State Department delegation this time and talked with India on a series of issues, including the China issue. During the talks, India presented its own views, trying every means to get more aid from the United States. According to the intelligence we have obtained, India did not provide the United States with information on the weapons supplied by the Soviet Union. This is because there is a clause in the U.S.-India aid agreement that if India obtains weapons from a communist country, the United States will correspondingly reduce its economic aid to India. At the same time, India may also be afraid that if it tells the United States about the advanced weapons given by the Soviet Union, the United States will not give India that kind of advanced weapon.

Chairman Mao: What advanced weapons! The Indians can't fight. The salaries of their officers are very high, but when it comes to real fighting, they are no good. In the future, you should pay attention to your method of fighting. You can place a small force at the front, but the main force should strike into India's interior, to its rear.

Premier Zhou: Once their line of retreat is cut, they are finished.

Chairman Mao: You must not let them get away. You use three divisions to fight one of their divisions. Place one division at the front, and have two divisions circle around to their rear. Only this kind of fighting method can fix them. Their way of fighting is still that of the Second World War, and their weapons are just those kinds of weapons. We have experience in dealing with them. They say I am a "warmonger." This is an official title bestowed upon me by U.S. imperialism and the Indian reactionaries. I would be happy if they bestowed a few more official titles on me. We do not want to occupy India's territory, we only want to annihilate its military strength. But if it doesn't come, we have no reason to attack it.

Premier Zhou: Recently, it has deployed 8 brigades in Sikkim. This is not to make a move, but to ask the U.S. and the Soviet Union for aid.

Chairman Mao: That makes sense. Can it attack Tibet with 8 brigades? But it doesn't come. How many men are in an Indian brigade?

Premier Zhou: Possibly four to five thousand men.

Chairman Mao: That's 40,000 men. Can so many people be stationed in Sikkim for long?

Premier Zhou: That's not possible.

Husain: Each brigade has only 3,000 men.

Premier Zhou: Mountain brigades, with fewer men.

Husain: Correct. It is impossible for India to attack China. As His Excellency the Chairman said, it is just posturing to ask the U.S. and the Soviet Union for weapons and aid. But it can use these weapons to exert pressure on Pakistan. This is what we are worried about. I have already discussed this issue with the Premier and Vice Premier Chen Yi. They both listened to my explanation with great patience and sympathy and gave me encouragement. They assured me that if India again launches an attack on Pakistan like the one in 1965, China will support and assist Pakistan.

Chairman Mao: Last time we fought India, our army penetrated deep into the eastern sector. Without penetrating deep, we could not annihilate its army. Annihilating several tens of thousands of its men made it feel comfortable, and the pressure on you was lessened. Your objective is not to occupy India's territory, but just to punish it a little. Our two countries have no military alliance, so it is impossible for us to go and attack India. If we were to conclude a military alliance, it would not be beneficial to you either. In that case, you would not be able to obtain aid from other countries. It would also not be beneficial to us. If India attacks you, we attack India; if India attacks us, you attack India. This would also be rather difficult to manage. It is better for each to fight its own battles.

The United States mainly wants to separate East Pakistan and West Pakistan. This is dangerous. Are there any East Pakistanis among you? (Husain introduces two East Pakistanis) Do you want to separate from them?

Director-General Tabarak Husain: We will never.

Chairman Mao: East and West Pakistan are very far apart. You should have India give you that piece of land! How far apart are East and West Pakistan?

Husain: 1,000 miles, 1,500 kilometers.

Chairman Mao: That's as far as from here to Hankou, such a large piece of land!

Premier Zhou: East Pakistan borders India's Bengal province.

Chairman Mao: Is East Pakistan another nationality?

Premier Zhou: East Pakistanis are Bengalis.

Chairman Mao: Do the people of East Pakistan believe in Islam or Hinduism?

Husain: East Pakistan has 60 million people, of whom less than 10 million believe in Hinduism, and the rest are all Muslims.

Chairman Mao: 60 million, with less than 10 million being Hindus. I hear there are also quite a few Muslims within India.

Husain: There are 60 million.

Chairman Mao: You must do your work well, truly do the work of the people. Is it possible that these 60 million people do not sympathize with you, but sympathize with India?

Husain: No. They basically sympathize with Pakistan, but they are oppressed by the Hindus. In Indian cities, riots by Hindus often occur, organized by right-wing reactionaries, and the Indian government does not stop them. Most Muslims are also poor people, very worried about their own safety and livelihood, afraid of being massacred, so it is impossible for them to participate in political activities.

Chairman Mao: Are these 60 million people not concentrated, but scattered?

Husain: They are scattered. Some states have more, like Assam, where Muslims account for 30%. The Chairman may know that during the 1962 Sino-Indian conflict, the Indian government forced 500,000 Muslims to move to East Pakistan. The Indian government said that Muslims were not loyal to India. When the Chinese army came, the Hindu peasants all fled, but the Muslims did not flee. The Indian government stipulated that Muslims are not allowed to live in the Sino-Indian and Indo-Pakistani border areas in Assam.

Chairman Mao: Did those 500,000 people go back later?

Husain: No, they are still in East Pakistan now, having become refugees. India's policy is clearly to reduce the number of Muslims in Assam; this is their strategy.

Chairman Mao: What religion do the people of Sikkim and Bhutan believe in?

Husain: Buddhism.

Chairman Mao: What nationality?

Husain: Tibetan. In India's northeast special region, none are of Indian ethnicity, such as the Mizo, Naga, Hmar. To the north are Tibetans, to the east are a mix of Naga, Mon, Burmese, and Tibetan peoples. In Assam, the real Indian ethnicity are immigrants from Bengal. Historically and traditionally, Assam was never a part of India; it was acquired later by the British. Now the tribes in that region are demanding independence one after another. Because they had no connection with India in the past, they are all primitive tribal peoples, oppressed by India. They demand to be free from Indian rule and have now created a lot of trouble for India.

Chairman Mao: The Nagas have 500,000 people.

Husain: Possibly more.

Chairman Mao: The Mizos are fewer, around 150,000.

Husain: Possibly 200,000.

Chairman Mao: What I saw was an Indian report; Indian reports give a smaller number. I thought it was a report by a British journalist, but it was actually by an Indian journalist.

Husain: India is carrying out brutal suppression against the Nagas and Mizos.

Chairman Mao: They come to China by the hundreds and thousands to ask for weapons. Can you not give them? They have traveled so far, through the northern part of Burma. As long as they can carry it, they take it away. The Indian government has lodged a protest with our embassy. We replied to it: This is our policy, we support all small and weak nations. Its protest is nothing but official formality.

Premier Zhou: India's recent gesture towards us is precisely because it is afraid of this.

Chairman Mao: There is another more important reason, which is the peasant uprisings within India. We also support them.

Premier Zhou: From north to south, it has also occurred in Kerala.

Husain: We also aid the Nagas and Mizos. Of course, Your Excellency can give them more aid. On this, our two countries often conduct close consultations. The Naga people are very brave.

Chairman Mao: They come in groups of a hundred or so each time. When they come, they can't take much, all relying on manpower. It's good for them to be tempered like this.

Husain: Helping them in this way is still useful. They say that with one of your guns and 20 rounds of ammunition, they can capture several enemy guns and several hundred rounds of ammunition.

Chairman Mao: We give them more than 20 rounds, we give them two or three hundred rounds.

Husain: I was just giving an example. Before China helped them, they mainly relied on capturing Indian weapons.

Chairman Mao: We also used this method in our past wars. We were surrounded by enemies on all four sides, cut off from the outside, completely relying on captured weapons, and we had no airplanes, no tanks. You must be prepared that if your airplanes are shot down, you can still fight. Airplanes and tanks are in fact special types of artillery; you can have them, or you can not have them. We fought for decades without a single airplane, without a single tank. Airplanes flew over our heads every day, and it was as if they weren't there at all. The war in South Vietnam is fought without airplanes, without tanks, without heavy artillery. The UAR's air force was wiped out in one day. Tanks are useless if they cannot pass through without good roads.

Premier Zhou: On a road, if the first and last tanks in a column are destroyed, the tanks in the middle are helpless.

Chairman Mao: I advise your army to be prepared for this. If your air force and tanks are all destroyed, will you stop fighting? Like the UAR? I think your terrain is good for fighting, unlike the Sinai Peninsula. The population is large, the people are patriotic, you know how to fight, and you are brave.

Husain: Our commanders have all studied the Chairman's unique military works, which have been tested through long wars. I believe that should an unforeseen event occur, they will certainly benefit from studying the Chairman's works.

Chairman Mao: You should build some underground aircraft hangars, to hide the planes underground.

Husain: We were prepared for this from the beginning. In September 1965, Indian planes launched the first attack, bombing our airfields, but our planes were already hidden underground. We did not lose a single plane on the ground. India lost 80 to 100 planes, while we only lost 14. Among them, one exploded because it was too close to an Indian ammunition depot it was bombing; one crashed during landing; a few were hit by our own anti-aircraft fire; only 8 were shot down by the Indian air force in combat. Towards the end of the war, the morale of Indian pilots was very low, and they dared not take off to fight Pakistan.

Chairman Mao: If India launches an offensive and occupies your major cities, like Lahore, what will you do?

Husain: At that time, every city will become a Stalingrad. Perhaps our people will be annihilated, but we will never surrender.

Chairman Mao: Will you be annihilated?

Husain: I mean our people would rather sacrifice themselves than surrender.

Chairman Mao: If India occupies some major cities, will it cause a great shock to your people, making them think you have been defeated?

Husain: If India occupies Lahore, the adverse impact will not be on morale, but on transportation and production. Lahore is a transportation hub, and arms production is also there; it is Pakistan's industrial center.

Chairman Mao: Can it not be moved to another place?

Husain: We are making efforts to develop other industrial centers. Karachi is a seaport. For the next few years, we will still have to rely on Lahore.

Chairman Mao: What about 'Pindi?

Husain: We are making efforts to develop 'Pindi. A factory that China helped build, our only large-scale military factory, is in 'Pindi.

Chairman Mao: That's good. You must be fully prepared, just in case.

Husain: We are proceeding on the assumption that a conflict may occur, and are preparing accordingly.

Chairman Mao: Good. The U.S. and the Soviet Union propose complete and total disarmament. Do you believe it?

Husain: They have been saying this since the Second World War, but in reality, their weapons are becoming more and more numerous, and more and more destructive.

Chairman Mao: It would be more correct to speak of complete and total arms expansion. This includes countries like ours, you and us. What complete and total disarmament! It's complete and total arms expansion, preparing for war. You are a diplomat, yet today we are always talking about war. Perhaps you are a "warmonger," it's just that no one has given you the title. The United Nations passed a resolution calling us "aggressors," and in propaganda, they call us "warmongers." We have a reason not to enter the United Nations. How can a "warmonger" enter the United Nations? Unless the United Nations passes another resolution saying the United States is the aggressor, and China is not, only then will we enter. But can a UN resolution be disregarded? China will absolutely not enter the United Nations; this door is blocked shut. Your hope for us to enter the United Nations is out of goodwill, but the United Nations has passed a resolution calling us "aggressors," so we cannot enter. The people you are meeting with today are "aggressors," that is us. But we have not aggressed against Pakistan. India saying we are "aggressors" might have some "reason," because we have been to their place.

Husain: His Excellency the Chairman mentioned that our support for China's entry into the United Nations is out of goodwill. We also have selfish intentions, because we know that the United Nations needs China, and China does not need the United Nations.

Chairman Mao: That's not it. It's just that our reputation is too bad; we are "aggressors." The American army in Vietnam is not an aggressor, but Ho Chi Minh is an "aggressor." Americans can go to Vietnam to fight, but North Vietnamese cannot help South Vietnamese; that is aggression. There are "aggressors" everywhere. Didn't we "aggress" against Chiang Kai-shek? Chiang Kai-shek called us "communist bandits." My name is "Bandit Mao Zedong." And Chiang Kai-shek still represents all of China! Let him represent it for 100 years!

Are you afraid that India will swallow you up? I think you might as well just merge with them and become one country.

Husain: If we could have merged, there would not have been a partition in the past.

Chairman Mao: Weren't you one country in the past?

Husain: You have had over 20 years of painful experience, while we have had 900 years of painful experience.

Chairman Mao: You can't merge?

Husain: How could that be possible. Neither I nor my descendants will ever kneel before a cow.

Chairman Mao: My meaning is to have you bore into their midst to make trouble. You have a population of 100 million. 100 million people boring into the cow's belly. Isn't its appetite very large? I would go in. I don't think it could stand it. I said this to the little Nehru, but he just didn't dare to accept!

Husain: They would be unable to digest us.

Chairman Mao: Are there also Hindus in West Pakistan?

Husain: About 800,000, most of whom are untouchables. They do not sympathize with the Hindu caste system. We treat them as equals, and they are happy.

Chairman Mao: Have you had contact with them?

Husain: I have.

Chairman Mao: Isn't it very dangerous to have contact with them?

Husain: What's the danger in that? All men are brothers.

Chairman Mao: Correct. But some so-called Communist Party members do not have contact. I am talking about the Indian revisionists.

Husain: I also know some leaders of the Communist Party of India. One of them even had a wedding ceremony according to Brahmin religious rituals. This so-called party member is a Brahmin, and his son-in-law is also a Brahmin.

Chairman Mao: Don't think that those "party members" believe in Marxism-Leninism.

Husain: They have developed their own model of Marxism-Leninism.

Chairman Mao: In reality, they are a labor aristocracy, they are masters.

Thank you.

Husain: Thank you very much, Your Excellency, for taking so much of your precious time. We have heard His Excellency the Chairman's very valuable and wise opinions and have come to understand many of Your Excellency's wise viewpoints, which is very beneficial to us.

Chairman Mao: I have said many very inappropriate things, telling you to fight even without airplanes, to fight even without tanks, telling you to fight on even after losing your major cities.

Husain: There is nothing inappropriate. These are words full of wisdom and are extremely wise. This is a truth that has been tested by practice over many years for us. Man is more important than the weapon in his hand.

Chairman Mao: During the Second World War when Germany occupied France, the airplanes of Britain and France were of no use. Britain's retreat at Dunkirk was a very sorry sight.

Premier Zhou: They lost all their weapons. Eden told me this himself.

(The foreign guests take their leave. Chairman Mao shakes hands with each one and sees them to the door)

Chairman Mao: You should advise President Ayub Khan to rest more. After a major illness, it is better to rest more.

Husain: Thank you very much, Your Excellency. I will certainly convey this to President Ayub Khan.

Thanks to Vissarion for collecting and organizing.