(Not reviewed by Chairman Mao)

(June 21, 1968)





Time: 6:15–7:00 p.m., June 21, 1968
Place: Great Hall of the People
Attendees:

Tanzanian Side: Sijena, Munyanka, Mgongja, Mwaluko, Sarakikia
Chinese Side: Lin Biao, Zhou Enlai, Kang Sheng, Huang Yongsheng, Chen Yi, Li Xiannian
Interpreter: Ji Chaozhu
Recorder: Zhou Xingwu





Chairman Mao: Welcome, gentlemen.

President Julius K. Nyerere (hereafter referred to as Nyerere): Thank you. We are very pleased to be visiting China once again. How is the Chairman’s health?

Chairman Mao: So-so—just getting by.

Nyerere: You look quite well.

Chairman Mao: Well, that’s only on the surface. And how about yourself?

Nyerere: I am in excellent health.

Chairman Mao: That’s good. Are the others all well too?

Nyerere: Yes, they are.

Chairman Mao: Is the climate here in Beijing similar to yours?

Nyerere: At present, Beijing is slightly warmer than Dar es Salaam.

Chairman Mao: Slightly warmer. What latitude are you at, down south?

Nyerere: Twelve degrees south.

Chairman Mao: Twelve degrees south—that would make it rather warm, then.

Nyerere: The coastal regions are still quite hot. In April, the weather was about the same as in Beijing. Now it’s beginning to cool down. However, the highlands are never really very cool. It’s only in the highlands that we’re starting to feel a bit of a breeze.

Chairman Mao: Do you have any high mountains?

Nyerere: Yes, we do.

Chairman Mao: Is there snow on those mountains?

Nyerere: Indeed, there is.

Chairman Mao: And are there tigers up there as well?

Nyerere: No. There are no tigers in Africa.
Since the tiger is an Asian animal, we cannot translate “paper tiger” into our local languages. (Laughter)

Premier Zhou: But Africa does have lions.

Chairman Mao: What do you call a lion?

Nyerere: In Swahili it’s “simba,” and in English it’s “lion.”

Chairman Mao: The pronunciation sounds rather like “Napoleon.” When I was studying French history, I read a biography of Napoleon—a translation, written by a Russian—which in fact served mainly to glorify Kutuzov. I’ve been wanting to find a work written by a French author. Back then, we lacked experience in reading. To read without experience is practically the same as not reading at all. As commander-in-chief, he forbade his troops from striking or verbally abusing one another. Of course, he could never have put forward a slogan such as “Our army exists to serve the people; it must not invade other nations.” On the contrary, he was bent on aggression. His downfall came precisely because he had overextended himself, making enemies on all fronts. He occupied half of Europe. Virtually every European country fought against him—Britain, Russia, Germany, Austria—and even France itself. At the time, France’s population stood at 28 million, counting only mainland France. Yet he also controlled Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy, and parts of Austria. Later, he went on to occupy Spain and Portugal. In his youth, he had even invaded Egypt and Syria. He conquered far too much territory, creating far too many adversaries. We, too, have made too many enemies.

Nyerere: Nevertheless, you have not acquired enemies by seizing foreign lands.

Chairman Mao: That is correct. Other countries have invaded us, but we have never invaded anyone else. Within our own borders, it is advantageous for the armed forces to eliminate the enemy. Should they attempt to invade us, even some elements on the right might actually support going to war, simply because they are the aggressors. By “the right,” I mean those whom the Red Guards sought to overthrow.

Who is the ambassador?

Nyerere: The gentleman seated here in the record.

Chairman Mao: How long have you been in office?

Ambassador Mwaluko: Less than two years.

Nyerere: He has a fairly good understanding of your Cultural Revolution.

Chairman Mao: A fairly good understanding, eh? Students and workers in Beijing have stirred up quite a storm, yet overall order has been maintained. They have accomplished some worthwhile things. Some foreign journalists, however, have portrayed the Red Guards as utterly destructive.

Nyerere: Mr. Chairman, China is unique in the world in that it has been able to initiate such a revolution of its own accord while simultaneously keeping it under control.

Chairman Mao: Let them make their fuss! They want to make a fuss, after all. Some people get anxious, saying, “We haven’t had classes for two years—what are we to do?” I reply, “I’d be happy to suspend classes for another two years.” Universities are of little real use, especially in the humanities. It’s already been two years; add two more, and it will be four. Still, you don’t leave? In truth, they have received one crucial lesson—the lesson of the Cultural Revolution. They harbor no hostility toward you.

Nyerere: Nor have we ever claimed that they were hostile to us. We have never expressed any dissatisfaction with the Red Guards.

Chairman Mao: They have never shown hostility toward you, regardless of your rank or position. Nor have they directed insults at certain foreign journalists.

Have you nearly concluded the matters at hand here?

Nyerere: I believe we have essentially completed our discussions with Premier Zhou. We will hold a smaller meeting this evening to go over a few remaining points.

Premier Zhou: This afternoon, we discussed the issue of continuing the revolution, educating the masses, the ideological legacies left behind by colonialism and feudalism, and how to carry out a revolution comparable in nature to the Cultural Revolution.

Chairman Mao: Old social structures always leave certain residues. We, too, still bear remnants of feudalism and imperialist ideology.

Premier Zhou: Including the influence of the comprador bourgeoisie.

Chairman Mao: Non-proletarian influences remain as well.

Premier Zhou: He has also come to understand that the military has been a staunch supporter of the Cultural Revolution, serving as its main pillar.

Chairman Mao: The army needs to be reformed. In Africa, we must rebuild our armed forces from the ground up, drawing them directly from the people.

Nyerere: I believe this is a critical issue for Africa. If a nation’s armed forces do not actively participate in the revolution—or if their involvement is merely superficial—the revolution cannot succeed.

Chairman Mao: An unstable military leads to an unstable government. Is that not so?

Nyerere: Indeed. I often tell my fellow leaders that when imperialism seeks to overthrow an African nation, it employs two primary tools: the local military and the local intelligentsia. Yet the reality should be just the opposite—the military and the intellectual class ought to be at the vanguard of the revolutionary movement. Therefore, if our armed forces fail to become an integral part of the people’s revolution, and if our intellectuals remain a privileged caste, we shall continue to be vulnerable. Imperialism will then be able to manipulate both these forces.

Chairman Mao: They are always scheming against you.

Nyerere: In any African country, if imperialism intends to bring about a regime change, it will either take direct control of the military or exploit the intelligentsia—or both.

Chairman Mao: Consider how Lumumba was overthrown, why President Nkrumah was prevented from returning home, and how Iraq’s Qasim was likewise ousted by the military.

Nyerere: In Ghana, the forces that brought about Nkrumah’s downfall consisted partly of the military and partly of the civil service. The latter underwent significant changes under British rule. Ghana’s subversion was less a matter of the military acting on its own initiative than of the civil servants manipulating the armed forces.

Chairman Mao: There was also Sukarno in Asia.

Nyerere: Both students and the military were exploited. This is truly a pivotal question. If we can transform our armed forces into genuine instruments of the people’s revolution, we will surely achieve our goals. Under such circumstances, it would be exceedingly difficult for imperialism to overthrow us. Even direct occupation of our country would prove highly challenging.

Imperialism could only succeed by fomenting unrest from within.

Chairman Mao: Your country is not small, is it?

Premier Zhou: It covers 930,000 square kilometers and has a population of 11 million—about one-tenth of China’s total area.

Chairman Mao: Jiangsu Province is 100,000 square kilometers, and Zhejiang Province is also roughly 100,000. Your country is certainly not tiny.

Nyerere: Geographically, it is quite large.

Chairman Mao: It has great potential for development.

Nyerere: Yes, it does.

Chairman Mao: Jiangsu is only about one-ninth the size of your country.

Nyerere: We are indeed a major power.

Chairman Mao: A major power with tremendous prospects for the future.

Nyerere: We are only just beginning.

Chairman Mao: We, too, are just beginning.

Nyerere: For too long, we have been subjected to exploitation. We have failed to harness our nation’s resources to benefit ourselves fully. Even now, we have not entirely eliminated foreign exploitation.

Chairman Mao: It is not something that can be eradicated overnight. Are there substantial foreign investments?

Premier Zhou: There are considerable investments.

Chairman Mao: Building up industry and agriculture requires a gradual process.

Premier Zhou: A few days ago, your finance minister announced the cancellation of £5 million in pensions and £9 million in compensation owed to former British civil servants. In response, Britain immediately suspended all aid to your country in the House of Commons.

Nyerere: This issue is easily explained to the Premier, since he pointed out that China, too, had previously found itself in a similar situation. Back then, China was not a colony but a semi-colony. Nonetheless, the tactics employed by imperialist powers remained identical.

Chairman Mao: In the past, Chinese soldiers were trained by foreigners and drilled in foreign languages—One, two, three, four.

Nyerere: We, too, have long conducted drills in English. Starting in 1965, we began using Swahili instead. As far as I know, aside from Arab countries, Tanzania is the only nation in Africa that conducts military exercises in its native language, Swahili, rather than in English or French.

Chairman Mao: In China, too, when the French trained our troops, they used French; when the Germans did, German; and when the Japanese took over, Japanese was the language of instruction.

Premier Zhou: Comrade Kang Sheng is from Shandong Province. Shandong was once a German colony. He therefore speaks German. Later, after World War II, it came under American administration.

Nyerere: Our territory was first a German protectorate, then a British one. My uncle fought for Germany during the war, while my brother and cousin lost their lives fighting for the British side.

Kang Sheng: Formerly, Shandong belonged to Germany, then to Japan, and subsequently to Chiang Kai-shek and the United States, until liberation finally arrived.

Chairman Mao: Today, the United States has largely replaced Britain and France as the dominant external influence.

Premier Zhou: There is also our major partner, the Soviet Union. While Mr. Nyerere refers to it as neo-colonialism, I prefer to call it social-imperialism.

Chairman Mao: When certain countries come under their control, those nations naturally become dissatisfied.

Premier Zhou: Your nationalist newspapers reported that, during a banquet, I denounced nuclear neo-colonialism, prompting several Soviet delegations to walk out.

Nyerere: Premier, you seem to be better informed than we are.

Premier Zhou: I learned about it from foreign news agencies.

Chairman Mao: He is a man who keeps abreast of current events.

There are also instances where Chinese personnel dispatched abroad behave improperly—some lack proper guidance, while others deliberately engage in misconduct.

Premier Zhou: Take, for example, the interpreter accompanying a textile expert.

Chairman Mao: They exhibit great-power chauvinism, bullying the host country, showing disrespect toward its leadership, and even conspiring behind the backs of both local officials and our own representatives to carry out improper actions. Whenever such behavior comes to light, we should promptly recall them.

Premier Zhou: We have already instructed our staff to report any such incidents to the embassy.

Nyerere: I suspect such cases are relatively rare.

Chairman Mao: Occasionally, they do occur.

Nyerere: Take, for instance, the interpreter mentioned earlier by the Premier. We consider it a minor matter. I am not fully aware of the details; the Minister of Defense, who is more closely involved, may have a clearer picture. According to the minister, this individual caused some minor difficulties with our security forces. Overall, however, the Chinese experts have performed exceptionally well. As I discussed with the Premier at noon today, the real issue lies not in seeking fault, but rather in the fact that the Chinese specialists have excelled to such a degree that local personnel and government officials feel unable to match their level of dedication. Consequently, some individuals begin to create problems for us. Their own conduct stands in stark contrast to that of the Chinese experts, leading them to wish the latter would simply depart. In essence, the exemplary behavior of the Chinese team has exposed the shortcomings of certain local figures. That said, to be fair, the vast majority of Chinese experts have been outstanding; only a handful have exhibited undesirable conduct.

Chairman Mao: It is important for you to remain vigilant against such individuals.

Nyerere: China appears to be the only country in the world that pays close attention to this kind of behavior.

Chairman Mao: We ourselves have encountered such individuals within our own government. In the past, we retained some Nationalist Party members who had demonstrated commendable conduct—this was part of our policy. Without enough professors, teachers, journalists, or artists capable of speaking foreign languages, we had no choice but to recruit from among the Nationalists, selecting those whose records seemed acceptable. Some Nationalist operatives had even been strategically embedded within our factories, government offices, and military units. We also absorbed Nationalist soldiers into the ranks of our armed forces. Additionally, we retained skilled doctors, technicians, engineers, and radio operators. Of course, not every professor, teacher, or technician was unsuitable; however, a significant minority did pose problems. The Cultural Revolution was undertaken precisely to purge these elements—to separate the wheat from the chaff, allowing the competent to continue serving while dismissing the incompetent.

Nyerere: To suggest that our situation is comparable to China’s in this regard would greatly underestimate the severity of our own predicament. Many of those present—including myself—once served as instructors under British colonial rule. Several ministers here have similarly worked for the British. Mgongja also spent a brief period in British employment, while the ambassador studied in Britain, and both the Minister of Defense and the Chief of Staff have prior experience working with the British. This contrasts sharply with your case. You absorbed individuals who had served the Nationalist regime, whereas we absorbed those who had collaborated with the colonial authorities. The Chinese People’s Liberation Army emerged from years of arduous struggle, originating in Hunan Province. From the outset, we faced considerable uncertainty regarding what steps needed to be taken after achieving independence. Determining who was worthy and who was unworthy proved extremely difficult, as we lacked clear objectives.

Chairman Mao: Such purges must be carried out with prudence and discernment. The number of malcontents is always small compared to the vast majority of loyalists. Take the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, for example: despite its massive apparatus of over three thousand personnel, only a handful were deemed unfit. Removing thirty individuals from a pool of three thousand represents merely one percent. Moreover, the ministry houses a diverse array of staff—from intellectuals to drivers, cooks, and clerical workers—all of whom carry vestiges of the old society.

Premier Zhou: Especially the drivers.

Chairman Mao: Even after thorough purging, the number of undesirables remains very small. We have been engaged in this process for nineteen years. How long has your country been undergoing similar reforms?

Nyerere: Six years.

Chairman Mao: Proceed with caution and take your time. In the old society, imperialism committed numerous wrongdoings, yet it ultimately created the very conditions that led to its downfall. These conditions were self-inflicted: first, by exploiting the people and driving them into open conflict; second, by cultivating an educated elite. Although this elite was trained to serve imperial interests, most eventually turned away from that allegiance, leaving only a small fraction willing to remain subservient. We ourselves belong to that very cohort—an intellectual class cultivated by imperialism, the Nationalist Party, and the Qing dynasty for purposes of domination.

Premier Zhou: Originally, they were groomed to serve those very powers, but the outcome ended up being the exact opposite.

Chairman Mao: Here, only two individuals—not intellectuals—are exempt from this category: Vice Premier Li Xiannian and General Huang Yongsheng. Both rose from humble origins—Li was a worker, Huang a poor peasant—and distinguished themselves through military service. Our Foreign Minister, too, has a military background; though he no longer engages in combat, he would undoubtedly take up arms again if imperialist forces were to threaten our nation.

How old is Chiang Kai-shek this year?

Premier Zhou: Eighty-two years old.

Chairman Mao: Let us see whether he or I shall meet our maker first!

Premier Zhou: Undoubtedly, the Chairman will outlive him. Besides his ongoing conflicts with the United States, he is currently embroiled in internal strife as well.

Chairman Mao: Are they planning a visit to North Korea?

Nyerere: Yes, tomorrow.

Chairman Mao: Very well, a visit to that country would be beneficial. Every nation possesses its own strengths, just as both you and we have our respective advantages. Of course, we must acknowledge our own shortcomings; nevertheless, the vast majority of our people remain virtuous. We hold a similar view toward the Soviet Union and toward France as well. While we disapprove of de Gaulle’s suppression of the people, we appreciate his resistance to U.S. hegemony. Were it left to the French Communist Party, Mendès-France, or Mitterrand, we would much prefer de Gaulle to lead the way. By “French Communist Party,” I refer specifically to its revisionist leadership.

Nyerere: During times of crisis in France, the Communist Party has behaved in a rather peculiar manner. It seems to shift its stance according to whatever directives it receives from Moscow. Clearly, as soon as one tunes into a Moscow radio broadcast, one can predict exactly what action the Communist Party will take the following day.

Premier Zhou: Not only you have recognized this pattern, but Algeria has also observed it. During World War II, a leader of the French Communist Party even served as Deputy Prime Minister, concurrently holding the post of Minister of Air Force. It was he who ordered air strikes against Algeria.

Nyerere: I have heard on Moscow radio that the current troubles in France are being orchestrated by extremist Maoists. After listening to such broadcasts, I can readily anticipate the Communist Party’s next move.

Chairman Mao: Recently, Tito delivered a speech stating that the rebellious students were Nazis, Rankovićists, Maoists, and other such elements—that ten percent were unruly, while ninety percent were well-behaved. I remarked that if ten percent of the students were truly defying Tito, we would be quite satisfied.

Nyerere: Reports indicate that the Yugoslav student movement aimed to build more socialism, not less. Due to the student protests, Tito was forced to abandon his earlier measures promoting economic liberalization.

Premier Zhou: He will undoubtedly resume those policies later—such moves were merely deceptive stratagems.

Nyerere: Indeed.

Premier Zhou: Now he faces opposition not only from students but also from workers.

Chairman Mao: Do we have anything further to discuss this evening? If not, let us conclude here. Thank you very much.

Nyerere: We extend our gratitude to the Chairman. We are deeply honored to have met him once again. My wife did not have the opportunity to greet him during her previous visit, but she is delighted to do so this time. Should we fail to see him again, I would be greatly troubled.

Chairman Mao: Thank you. And thank you as well to your wife.

Nyerere: Thank you. May the Chairman enjoy long life and good health.