(Not reviewed by Chairman Mao)

(May 24, 1968)





Time: 4:20 p.m. to 5:00 p.m., May 24, 1968
Place: Great Hall of the People
Attendees:

Foreign Guests: Ousmane Ba, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Mali; Lansana Beavogui, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Guinea; Bangoura Kassory, Guinea’s Ambassador-at-Large; Sékou Camara, Guinea’s Ambassador to China; Alassane Traoré, Chief of Staff of the Malian Ministry of Foreign Affairs; Moussa Coulibaly, Chargé d’Affaires of the Malian Embassy in China; Tidiani Traoré, Director-General of the Malian Railways; Mamadou Ba, Division Chief of the Malian Railways.

Chinese Side: Lin Biao, Zhou Enlai, Chen Yi, Li Xiannian

Interpreter: Li Jinghua

Recorder: Zhou Xingwu





Chairman Mao: How are you all?

Minister Ousmane Ba (hereinafter referred to as Ousmane): Very well.

Chairman Mao: Is this your first visit?

Ousmane: Yes, it is my first time.

Minister Lansana Beavogui: This is my second visit.

Chairman Mao: Have you been able to carry out your work successfully?

Ousmane: Our work has gone very well, and we are delighted to be here.

Chairman Mao: What is there to be so happy about?

Ousmane: We are very pleased because we have had the opportunity to come here and see the situation in China. For many years we have longed to visit China. After President Keïta’s visit to China, I have always hoped to make this trip myself. On this occasion, we have received a warm welcome from China’s leaders, the Chinese government, cadres, and people, which fills us with great joy. We are also glad to convey to you the friendly greetings of Presidents Sékou Touré and Modibo Keïta.

Chairman Mao: Thank you very much.

Ousmane: Another source of our happiness is that, by coming here this time, we have the chance to witness firsthand the achievements of the Chinese Proletarian Cultural Revolution, which you, Chairman, have personally led. As African revolutionaries, we are especially gratified to meet you in person. The people of our countries hold you in deep affection; you are one of the greatest revolutionaries of our time.

Chairman Mao: That is going too far.

Ousmane: That is our view, and it is also the view of Africans—expressed wholeheartedly.

Chairman Mao: China is a very ancient country. Since the revolution, it has become a new nation, but this process is still quite recent, and various undertakings are only just beginning. Therefore, it is indeed fortunate for us to have this opportunity to meet with you and exchange views. Your two countries have made considerable progress; you have achieved political independence and are now working together in unity. When you return home, please extend my greetings to both presidents. Some foreigners regard the Proletarian Cultural Revolution as something very bad—utterly disastrous.

The current situation in France bears certain similarities to ours. The movement has spread from the schools to the factories and even to government offices, and students are posting big-character posters on the walls. France holds promise. After all, the revolution originally began there.

In the 18th century, in 1789, the great bourgeois revolution broke out in France. However, that revolution ultimately failed. Subsequently, the country reverted to imperial rule under Napoleon. There followed several further twists and turns—republican regimes alternating with monarchies; periods of revolution giving way to reaction—until the establishment of the Third Republic in the latter half of the 19th century.

Chen Yi: Students in Marseille have risen up against the Fifth Republic, that is, against de Gaulle.

Chairman Mao: We often tell our friends: whether they are students or workers, if they want to make a revolution, let them do so. Why should we try to suppress them? The present situation in France has been brought about precisely by such suppression! It all started with a dispute over a single school—the closure of the Faculty of Arts at the University of Paris. When the students protested, the authorities cracked down hard on them, on May 3rd. Several people were injured, and hundreds were arrested. The unrest continued to escalate. By the 6th, tens of thousands of students were demonstrating, and again hundreds were arrested, with many more injured. By the 11th, large-scale demonstrations erupted, followed once more by massive repression. By proceeding in this manner, France was bound to erupt. On the 17th, a general strike was officially declared, and it has now been going on for a full week. Initially involving around 100,000 workers, the strike has since grown to encompass eight million. You, too, were oppressed before gaining your independence. But you must never forget that suffering. Some of our own people have already begun to lose sight of it, becoming intolerant of any student unrest. Those who are quick to criticize others tend to be particularly resistant to self-criticism. These gentlemen (referring to Chen Yi and Li Xiannian) have themselves been subjected to criticism many times. They are now quite accustomed to it. There is nothing wrong with criticizing them; a little bit of criticism every now and then does no harm.

The world is currently in a state of turmoil.

As I mentioned earlier, China has established a new state—a very young one, much like yourselves. In Europe and the Americas, revolutions occurred much earlier. The bourgeoisie and capitalists of those countries look down upon us, claiming that their world is exceptionally good while ours is terribly bad, including your countries. Their views differ markedly from yours. For example, you welcome our Proletarian Cultural Revolution, whereas the Western bourgeoisie opposes it. Even in Beijing, there are some who disapprove of it. This serves as a valuable lesson: if you disagree, that is your prerogative. Nevertheless, the Cultural Revolution must continue. Despite your opposition, the masses will not relent as long as they perceive problems to remain unresolved. Consequently, we have adopted the following policy: if you wish to protest, go ahead—let you do so freely. You may take to the streets, post big-character posters along both sides of the roads, denouncing one person today and another tomorrow. Do you ambassadors understand this? Which two of you are ambassadors? (Premier Zhou and Chen Yi introduce the Guinean ambassador and the Malian chargé d’affaires to Chairman Mao.) How long have each of you been in China?

Guinean Ambassador Camara: Two years and four months.

Chairman Mao: Then you have witnessed everything during this very period.

Chen Yi: The Malian chargé d’affaires arrived last year.

Chairman Mao: The chargé d’affaires came last year?

Malian Chargé d’Affaires Coulibaly: I only arrived this March.

Chairman Mao: Oh, so you just came this March.

In summary, whatever deserves to be overthrown will be overthrown; what does not deserve to be overthrown will not be. That concludes our discussion. Are there any further remarks?

Ousmane: We would like to add that the peoples of Guinea and Mali believe that everything currently taking place in China is excellent.

Chairman Mao: Not necessarily—things are not all excellent.

Ousmane: Nevertheless, we consider them excellent.

Chairman Mao: You are looking at only one side of the picture.

Ousmane: Our own countries are also doing well, but not everything is perfect.

There is still a long way to go before we reach true prosperity! However, our enemies have recently fared even worse than we have.

Chairman Mao: It is certain that we are superior to the imperialist powers. Although we may lack abundant funds, factories, atomic bombs, and firearms, we are nonetheless better off than they are.

Ousmane: Indeed.

Chairman Mao: Therefore, we must maintain a correct outlook and unwavering confidence. Without faith in the justice of our cause, we cannot effectively carry out our work. Within our own ranks, we should acknowledge our shortcomings and refrain from becoming complacent simply because of minor achievements. Achievements are inevitable—if there were none, what would be the point? Such accomplishments are made by the people, while we are merely cadres elected by them. Did the word “cadre” originate from French?

Ousmane: The pronunciation is similar.

Chairman Mao: Please convey my greetings to the presidents of your two countries, as well as to your governments and peoples.

Imperialism is always scheming. We must remain vigilant against imperialist forces, which harbor ill intentions toward us.

The President of Ghana is currently staying in your country. Who was responsible for ousting him? Imperialism, of course! Imperialists engineered his removal while he was on an official visit to China.

Has your country established a Revolutionary Committee?

Chen Yi: Mali has established a Committee for the Defense of the Revolution.

Ousmane: Yes.

Chen Yi: The Political Bureau of the Guinean Party has been reduced from 15 members to 7.

Premier Zhou: Of the original 15 members of the Political Bureau, 6 were opposed to President Sékou Touré.

Chairman Mao: So there was opposition?

Chen Yi: There was an opposition faction.

Chairman Mao: In many parts of China, we have generally established Revolutionary Committees, perhaps inspired by your example. Beijing itself has a Revolutionary Committee. How do you say “committee” in French? (The interpreter replies: “comité.”) It differs from the Chinese term.

Ousmane: Allow me to add briefly that our talks here have proceeded extremely smoothly. We are scheduled to depart China tomorrow.

Chairman Mao: Very well. Building a railway would be beneficial. Whatever benefits you should be done. Why has the Soviet Union refused to build it for you? Surely there were plans available. Did you decline their assistance, or did they refuse to provide it?

Ousmane: From our side, we were willing to accept their help. However, for reasons that were never explained to us, the Soviet side ultimately declined to construct the railway.

Chairman Mao: This 340-kilometer railway would not cost much! You should also learn the relevant technologies yourself—surveying, design, construction, and operation. You can acquire these skills through on-site training, inviting students from technical schools to participate, and we will assist in training your technical personnel.

Chen Yi: We have helped them cultivate tea, build textile mills and sugar refineries, and train their technical staff in all these areas.

Chairman Mao: Once our people leave, your own personnel will be able to take over. The same applies to the railway. Shall we conclude our meeting here?

Ousmane: Thank you. We are deeply grateful to the Chairman for taking the time to receive us.

(Chairman Mao saw the foreign guests off to their car and waved goodbye to them.)