(Not reviewed by the speaker)

(December 13, 1967)

[In April 1967, the Maoist faction that split from the Communist Party of India led a peasant armed movement in the Naxalbari area of Darjeeling district, West Bengal. The media later referred to this group as the Naxalites. On July 5, 1967, at the height of the Cultural Revolution, China published an editorial titled "Spring Thunder in India" in the People’s Daily, openly supporting the struggle of the revolutionary faction of the Indian Communist Party in the Darjeeling region.]

Time: December 13, 1967, from 10:25 a.m. to 11:45 a.m.

Location: Great Hall of the People

Participants:

Indian side: Kanu Sanyal, Dipak Biswas, Abdul Hamid, Khokan Malik

Chinese side: Zhou Enlai, Kang Sheng, Yang Chengwu, Liu Ningyi

Interpreter: Li Guanghui

Stenographer: Yao Shigen

Chairman Mao (hereinafter referred to as Chairman): Which comrade is Kanu Sanyal?
Kang Sheng (hereinafter referred to as Kang): This is the comrade.

Chairman: What is the name of that comrade?
Kanu Sanyal (hereinafter referred to as Sanyal): Comrade Dipak Biswas.

Kang: He is a university student.

Chairman: Comrade Dipak Biswas is a university student. And you (pointing to Kanu Sanyal)?
Sanyal: I am not.

Chairman: How many years of schooling did you have?
Sanyal: I studied up to pre-university.

Chairman: What is your name?
Sanyal: He is Comrade Abdul Hamid.

Chairman: You haven’t attended school?
Abdul Hamid: Very little schooling.

Chairman: More schooling is not necessarily a good thing. And that one?
Sanyal: He is Comrade Khokan Malik.

Chairman: Are both of you (pointing to Abdul Hamid and Khokan Malik) peasants?
Sanyal: Yes.

Chairman: How did you manage to get out this time? Where did you come from?
Sanyal: First through West Bengal in India, then through Nepal. We took a train in the West Bengal region of India, then a bus in Nepal, and from Kathmandu to China, sometimes by car, sometimes on horseback.

Chairman: So you even climbed over the Himalayas.

We stand on your side, opposing Namboodiripad, Sundarayya, and Jyoti Basu together with you. Did Jyoti Basu visit China before?
Kang: Yes, he came with Ghosh.

Chairman: They are legalists, compromising with the government, and share the same line of thinking. They deceive the people, talking about forming coalition governments and parliamentary transitions, claiming this can lead to a peaceful transition and future socialism. Those are all lies.

India is now a country ruled by imperialism, feudalism, and bureaucratic capitalism. The rule extends right down to county governments and even township governments, all with police. The Indian people must completely uproot this entire system and establish their own organs of political power. For now, your strength is still small. India is such a vast country with so many people, and no one knows when the government will be established. Do you feel this way?
Sanyal: We are confident that as long as we follow the path of Chairman Mao’s thought, we will ultimately achieve liberation.

Chairman: A genuine revolution always begins on a small scale. If it started on a large scale, that would be inconceivable.

There is a coalition government in West Bengal now, isn’t there?
Zhou Enlai (hereinafter referred to as Zhou): It has been dissolved by the Congress government.

Chairman: What about Kerala?
Sanyal: As far as we know, there is still a coalition government in Kerala.

Chairman: Non-Congress coalition governments, it seems there are eight or nine, right?
Sanyal: There are nine states with non-Congress coalition governments.

Chairman: India has a total of fourteen states?
Sanyal: Fourteen states.

Chairman: India has over 400 million people and fourteen states, so each state is quite large.
Zhou: West Bengal is a very large state.

Chairman: Are you four comrades from the same ethnic group?
Sanyal: We are from different ethnic groups.

Kang: The three of them (pointing to Sanyal, Biswas, and Hamid) are Bengali, and he (pointing to Malik) is not Bengali. I can’t remember which minority he belongs to.
Zhou: Is your home near the border with Sikkim?
Khokan Malik (hereinafter referred to as Malik): Near Majhim.

Zhou: Very close. He looks a bit like us, the yellow race.
Sanyal: In the place where he lives, there are two ethnic groups that look exactly like the yellow race, one called Jimi and the other called Demak.

Chairman: They might be descendants left behind when the Mongols entered India during the Yuan Dynasty.

How long did you spend on the road? When did you arrive in Beijing?
Sanyal: It took five days from Darjeeling district in West Bengal to Lhasa.

Chairman: That’s quite fast.
And from Lhasa to Beijing?
Sanyal: One day by plane.

Chairman: How long have you been in Beijing?
Sanyal: We arrived on September 15.

Chairman: October 15, November 15, December 15 – 80 days. Haven’t you gone out of Beijing?
Kang: We’ve mainly been studying military affairs at the Changping military school.

Chairman: This is Comrade Yang Chengwu, Chief of the General Staff, in charge of the military. (To Yang Chengwu) You also joined the army at a young age, right?
Yang Chengwu (hereinafter referred to as Yang): Yes, I joined the Red Army at 16.

Chairman: When you started by overthrowing local political power, seizing local power structures, and taking land, was it still a minority that supported your plan?
Sanyal: I can only speak about the situation in our district. When we started the armed struggle, there were only about twenty people in our district.

Chairman: And later?
Sanyal: Later, the number increased, from the initial two areas to four areas, growing to 40,000 people.

Chairman: A revolution has its ups and downs, advancing like waves; it will encounter setbacks. Are you clear on the history of the Chinese Communist Party?
Sanyal: We’ve learned a little after arriving in China.

Chairman: At first, we carried out workers’ movements, peasant movements, and student movements in the cities. That wasn’t reliable. Later, the bourgeoisie betrayed us, killed people, and swept away all the trade unions, peasant associations, and student organizations. Only then did our comrades realize we had to wage an armed struggle. In the beginning, our strength was also very small; we lost some battles and won some battles. Because several instances of opportunism emerged within our Party at that time, most of our base areas were lost as a result. Then the Japanese invaded. After that, we established many base areas behind enemy lines in Japanese-occupied territory. After the Japanese left, we fought against Chiang Kai-shek, and in the end, defeated him, and he fled to Taiwan. Large countries like China and India attract a lot of attention from the imperialists. It’s also very difficult to avoid mistakes within one’s own ranks. You’ve just replaced Dange. Namboodiripad, Sundarayya – these people seemed a bit better, right? But in the end, they turned out to be rightists.
Kang: Especially Das Gupta. We originally thought he was leftist, but after Khrushchev’s downfall, he completely turned to the right.

Chairman: They are divorced from the masses. The masses won’t stand with them at all. With the heavy snow sealing the mountain passes, can you still get through?
Sanyal: If we want to get through, we’ll have to make a great effort.

Zhou: Are there roads available?
Sanyal: Since this is my first time in China, I don’t know about this situation.

Liu Ningyi (hereinafter referred to as Liu): The passes are only sealed after December. For now, some places are still passable. Sharma went back via the mountain route. He traveled for two weeks. In the past, he didn’t know how to organize guerrilla forces. After coming to China, he studied at Changping for two months, learning how to organize guerrilla forces. After returning, he is now running a training class.

Chairman: Where is he running it, in their area?
Liu: In their own region.

They come batch by batch according to a plan. Three batches have come so far. None of them know which route the others took, nor when they set off.

Chairman: How many people in the third batch?
Kang: Eight people.

Chairman: When are you preparing to leave?
Liu: Tomorrow, we’ll fly to Chengdu, and then take a plane from Chengdu to Tibet. They can probably set off the day after tomorrow.

Chairman: Are there planes from Chengdu to Tibet?
Zhou: There is a newly built airport south of Lhasa.

Kang: The situation for flying to Lhasa is this: from Beijing to Lhasa, once a week; from Chengdu to Lhasa, twice a week.

Chairman: We are very happy to have Indian comrades come here to exchange views with us.

How long has the training class been running?
Liu: Less than two months. In Beijing, they formally studied for over a month, studying Mao Zedong Thought, mass work, and peasant work. After going to Changping, they studied the strategy and tactics of guerrilla warfare and how to establish base areas.

Chairman: Didn’t they learn shooting and throwing grenades?
Liu: Originally, they were supposed to practice at Changping, but they said there were armed conflicts there, so they plan to practice in Tibet.

Kang: Did you study demolition techniques and how to make grenades at Changping?
Sanyal: We did.

Chairman: The training class should be run at most two or three times. Pay attention to resting, and prepare for struggle. Most people don’t even need to study; just fight. Fighting is a very good form of learning. Reading too many books – like Dange, Namboodiripad, and Sundarayya – what use is all that learning?

Kang: Has Comrade Khokan Malik fought in battles?
Malik: Yes.

Zhou: Can you shoot?
Malik: A little bit.

Kang: Comrade Dipak Biswas has also taken part in battles?
Sanyal: Yes.

Kang: All four of you have taken part?
Sanyal: All of us.

Kang: What weapons did you use?
Sanyal: Bows and arrows. We also used hunting guns seized from landlords.

Chairman: Did you seize any guns from the police?
Sanyal: We had confrontations with the police, but we didn’t manage to seize any guns.

Chairman: Seize them using a sudden ambush. Use a larger number of people against a small group of police, and you can wipe out that small group of police.

Has the regular army of the central government not yet joined the fight against you?
Sanyal: In our district, the regular army hasn’t joined yet. The central government has only stationed paramilitary forces there.

Chairman: What do you mean by paramilitary forces?
Sanyal: In these forces, some are police, and some are military cadres.

Chairman: How many troops like this are there?
Sanyal: Probably about 12,000.

Chairman: That many!
Kang: That probably includes the landlords’ armed forces.

Sanyal: No.

Zhou: The Darjeeling area has an army corps; the corps headquarters is in Darjeeling. This corps has two divisions, one of which is stationed right there.

How far are you from Darjeeling?
Sanyal: 25 miles.

Zhou: That’s very close.

Chairman: It’s still very difficult to transport weapons, grenades, and supplies there right now.
Yang: From our border to Darjeeling is only 80 kilometers.

Zhou: 80 kilometers can be covered in two days on foot.
Liu: The northern side is the hardest to cross because there are many troops stationed there.

Chairman: What is your view on the McMahon Line?
Sanyal: We do not recognize the McMahon Line. During the Sino-Indian border conflict, we rose up to oppose the Indian government, believing that what the Chinese government said was correct.

Chairman: We are currently putting this issue aside for the time being. We will put it aside until the Indian people – that is, people like you – form a central government, sever ties with imperialism, feudalism, and bureaucratic capitalism. At that time, we will sign a treaty with you and give you those 90,000 square kilometers of land south of this line. If it is a government of imperialism, feudalism, and bureaucratic capitalism – whether it’s Nehru’s government, the current Indira Gandhi government, or a Namboodiripad government – we will not cede an inch of land. When a government established by the Indian revolutionary people emerges in the future, then we will give it all to you. Do you think this approach is good? This is precisely our policy.

Sanyal: We believe the policy of the Chinese Party and government is entirely correct.

Chairman: We have no desire for that 90,000 square kilometers of land. I said the same thing to Ghosh. Ghosh was actually acting on Nehru’s behalf. We told him – to his credit, he still spoke well of China at the Moscow conference.

Kang: He was a bit better than Dange.

Chairman: This kind of travel method of yours is quite good – no need for passports, no need for government permission. You just come on your own.

Kang: No passport is needed from India to Nepal.

Chairman: What about to East Pakistan?
Sanyal: A passport is needed.

Zhou: Going from Nepal to Tibet is semi-official.

Chairman: How did our embassy in Kathmandu arrange for you to come?
Sanyal: We first went to Kathmandu in Nepal and found the Chinese embassy. Then comrades from the embassy arranged things for us, assigned a guide, and specified which route to take to the border.

Zhou: Did you carry any note?
Sanyal: We traveled at night; no note was given.

Kang: When you travel by car and people ask what you are doing, how do you answer?

Sang: When passing through checkpoints, we hide underneath the car. After the checkpoint is past, we come out from under the car and continue walking.

Chairman: You have done well. But this is not a long-term solution. If too many people travel this way, the Indian government will grow suspicious.

Kang: Sharma took a small path to cross over. He walked for two weeks.

Chairman: Didn't he go through Nepal?

Kang: Not through the capital of Nepal.

Liu: He took a mountain path, carrying dry provisions. He would come across a village after a day's walk.

Zhou: West of the highway, pilgrims take mountain roads to come into China. Are you familiar with the pilgrims' routes?

Sang: We are not very familiar with those roads.

Liu: Taking mountain roads requires knowing the way. If you are not familiar with the route and cannot find the village, you will not have food, so you must bring dry provisions.

There was also this episode during Sharma's journey: He arrived at a village and was sleeping in a peasant's house when the husband and wife began quarreling. The police came, and upon seeing a stranger, they arrested him and took him away. Later, after walking another stretch, he reached a place where peasants and landlords were quarreling. The police saw people fighting again and paid no attention to him, so Sharma seized the opportunity to slip away.

Chairman: India must rely on its workers and peasants to solve its problems, that is, on people like you. We do not rely on people like Gandhi, Nehru, or Namboodiripad to solve problems. They are all temporary figures. Only the heroes among the workers and peasants will be the leaders of the future. Only when all feudalism, capitalism, and imperialism have been eradicated can a socialist system be established across the world. For now, they are still very "thriving" in most places. In your India, for example, even a district government like Darjeeling is an impressive thing.

Kang: An article by an Indian writer reprinted in *Reference News* said that in their three years since taking office, Brezhnev and Kosygin have provided more aid to the Indian reactionaries than Khrushchev did in ten years.

Zhou: The prices are 20% higher than those of the West.

Kang: Le Duan told me in the car that he had spoken to Brezhnev and Kosygin of the Soviet Union, telling them that the Soviet Union's aid to India far exceeds its aid to Vietnam. I do not know whether he said this truthfully or not, but the facts are like this.

Zhou: Aid to the U.A.R. also exceeds aid to Vietnam.

Chairman: That aid comes with interest. So modern revisionism is much the same as imperialism.

Zhou: The Soviet Union abandoned its own proposal in the Security Council and was able to take up the British proposal instead. This has deepened the contradictions between the rulers of the Arab countries and the Soviet Union, and there are also contradictions among the countries.

Chairman: It seems there is danger to the Yemeni regime.

Zhou: The royalist faction went into exile in the past and has been living in the border region of Saudi Arabia. Now they are attacking the republican faction.

Among the Arab countries, the U.A.R. also exhibits great-nation chauvinism.

Chairman: (To the Indian guests) What we are discussing are matters concerning Arab countries.

Kang: The Soviet Union is now rather tense. Brezhnev went to Czechoslovakia, Ulbricht went to Moscow, and Gromyko went to Poland. Probably the West Germany issue is creating some tension.

Chairman: In what way is it tense?

Zhou: West German revanchism does not recognize the borders. Regarding NATO defense dispositions, the United States wants to withdraw troops, and Britain also wants to pull out. As a result, a large proportion of the frontline army forces along the border are West German troops.

Kang: Additionally, there are internal problems in Czechoslovakia. Novotný faces certain dangers.

Zhou: The Romanian government has been reorganized, leaning more toward a declaration of war against the Soviet Union. Because the Soviet Union does not supply it with industrial raw materials—its iron depends on Soviet supply—now it has reorganized the government and declared war against the USSR, replacing those who were pro-Soviet. Stoica was relatively pro-Soviet in the past.

Kang: Stoica changed from being President of the State Council to a Secretary of the Secretariat.

Zhou: Ceaușescu is both the First Secretary and the President of the State Council. Stoica has no power now. The party, government, and military have become unified.

Kang: Especially Apostol. He used to be the First Vice-Chairman of the Council of Ministers and in fact managed party affairs. Now, like Shelepin, he has been moved to manage trade unions. Besides that, Drăghici, who handled the police and secret service apparatus, has also been dismissed and appointed as a Vice-Chairman of the Council of Ministers.

Chairman: Previously there were four First Vice-Chairmen of the Council of Ministers.

Kang: Now there is only a young one, intended to replace Maurer.

They have adopted a method of merging the party and government. The party organs and government organs are one, and culture-education and propaganda are also one.

Chairman: Having two separate sets doesn't make much sense.

Kang: They felt it caused duplication.

Chairman: (To the Indian guests) We are talking about the reorganization of the Romanian government. It is in conflict with the Soviet Union. According to them (indicating Premier Zhou and Kang Sheng), the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, and countries like Poland are somewhat frightened by the rise of West German revanchism. That border, I think, is unreliable.

Zhou: They position conventional forces on the first line, while nuclear installations and air forces are placed further back. If a border conflict occurs, they may use conventional forces to fight but must not use nuclear weapons. This stipulation is very particular. This is preliminary material we have just obtained and it still needs study.

Kang: Britain is also using the excuse of financial difficulties to withdraw its troops.

Zhou: The United States has four divisions. Britain never had many there, and France has withdrawn as well, so West Germany has more freedom.

Chairman: The Soviet Union has a small number of troops in East Germany, Poland, and Hungary, but none in Czechoslovakia.

Kang: The United States is putting pressure on the Soviet Union over issues like Vietnam.

It appears they are very tense. During the October Revolution celebrations, those characters all went to Moscow. Now some are going to Moscow, some are departing. It seems quite tense.

Zhou: They are beset with difficulties. That is why Ceaușescu of Romania led a delegation on an official visit to the Soviet Union—to negotiate terms.

Chairman: Let's end our talk here for today.

Thanks to Vissarion for collecting and organizing.