(Not reviewed by the speaker)

(November 1967)

[Kaysone Phomvihane (1920–1992) was the principal founder and leader of the Lao People's Democratic Republic, the Lao People's Revolutionary Party, and the Lao People's Army. He served as General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Lao People's Revolutionary Party (1955–1991), Chairman of the Party (1991–1992), Prime Minister of the Lao Government (1975–1991), and President of the Lao People's Democratic Republic (1991–1992).]

Time: November 30, 1967, from 18:45 to 20:00

Location: Great Hall of the People

Participants:

Lao side: Kaysone, Sanan, Meuso

Chinese side: Lin Biao, Zhou Enlai, Kang Sheng, Liu Ningyi

Interpreter: Huang Qun

Stenographer: Lü Huixiang

Chairman Mao (hereinafter referred to as Chairman): How is your health?

Kaysone (hereinafter referred to as Kay): Generally alright.

Chairman: Where exactly are you living now in Sam Neua?

Kay: We are living in caves now.

Chairman: Caves can be dug out.

Kay: They are all natural stone caves. After some modifications, people live inside. We used to live outside, but now, because of the bombing by American planes, we have all moved into the caves.

Chairman: Do American planes come at night?

Kay: Sometimes they come at night.

Chairman: How many kilometers is it from Sam Neua to Hanoi?

Kay: Over 300 kilometers.

Chairman: Who are still with Phouma now?

Kay: Phouma is nominally neutralist now, but in reality he has already merged with the rightists. So, Phouma and the rightists Phoui Sananikone, Kouprasith, and Latikoun have all merged together.

Chairman: What about Nosavan?

Kay: He has fled to Thailand.

Chairman: What about Kong Le?

Kay: Kong Le now has no troops left. After they pushed him out, his original neutralist forces were merged with the rightist troops. However, there are still contradictions within their ranks. Especially some of Kong Le's former lower-ranking officers are somewhat dissatisfied with the merger with the rightist troops, because they still had some neutralist inclinations originally.

Since we last met Chairman Mao in Shanghai in 1965, U.S. imperialism has intensified its special war in Laos, manifested by increased air force bombing. It has two strategic objectives:

First, to bomb and destroy our liberated areas while further nibbling away at them;

Second, to destroy our guerrilla base areas and "pacify" the areas behind enemy lines.

In the past two years, they have adopted some new methods.

On the military front, several types of military forces coordinate with each other. While sending air forces to bomb and destroy, they also dispatch troops to attack us and send special commando units to harass our rear areas. At the same time, they conduct political offensives and military offensives, intensifying their psychological warfare. Particularly in their occupied areas, they use various neocolonialist means to strengthen their control over the occupied zones.

The rightist troops now total about 70,000, and there are roughly 5,000 American military advisors.

Chairman: Oh, so many!

Kay: If other foreign personnel, such as French and Filipinos, are included, there are probably about 12,000.

They directly assist the puppet government. There are many contradictions between the Americans and the French.

Chairman: Do the French fight you?

Kay: The French mainly help them train troops and provide education in the rear areas; they are not on the front lines.

The Americans mentioned earlier mainly refer to the advisors who directly control the rightist troops. The air force units sent in from outside to conduct bombing are not included in this count.

Chairman: Where do American planes take off from?

Kay: Generally from Udon in Thailand. The B-52s also take off from Thailand.

Chairman: Do they bomb your Sam Neua?

Kay: The B-52s don't come to Sam Neua; they mainly bomb the area in Middle and Lower Laos.

American planes concentrate their bombing on two areas: one is Xieng Khouang, and the other is Sam Neua. The B-52s mainly destroy some crops and houses. Our troops generally suffer no significant losses from them. Since the bombing began, only about thirty-odd civilians have been killed.

Chairman: The damage is not so severe then.

Kay: We originally heard about B-52 bombing and all thought it would be very terrible, but the results turned out not to be so. Before bombing, the B-52s generally send planes to reconnoiter first. At the places they reconnoiter, we leave beforehand to avoid losses.

We have made some summaries. In the past two years, U.S. imperialism has failed both politically and militarily. Politically, it has become more isolated; militarily, we have wiped out about 25,000 of its effective strength and shot down over 700 aircraft. We have already shot down 15 planes using rifles.

Chairman: From what altitude do the B-52s bomb?

Kay: Above 6,000 meters.

Overall, in the past two years, the revolutionary forces have achieved greater consolidation and made many good advances, including some new factors. Militarily, some battles have been fought better than before, and some annihilation battles have also been fought well.

In the liberated areas, although we have encountered many difficulties, there has still been further consolidation compared to the past, and the consciousness of the masses has been further raised. We have mobilized the masses in various places, launched mass movements, and further consolidated grassroots political power.

Chairman: Very good.

Kay: Now we have developed the economy in the liberated areas. Regarding economic construction in the liberated areas, we now take agriculture as the foundation and have restored the production of some small handicraft industries. Although some places have encountered natural disasters, production conditions in areas without disasters are relatively good.

Chairman: How is your work among the minority nationalities going?

Kay: There has been progress compared to 1965. Our work in the Meo (Hmong) areas is now done relatively well, and bandits have also been wiped out by us in some places. In Sam Neua, work among minority nationalities has also progressed.

In the past two years, we have caused the disintegration of 6,000 bandits in the Meo areas, and we have won over entire companies of some reactionary armed forces. We let them return home, and after going home, some never engage in such activities again.

Chairman: Are they Meo?

Kay: Most are Meo.

Chairman: What are the main minority nationalities within your country?

Kay: Nationwide, one is the Meo nationality, and another is the Lao Theung nationality.

Zhou Enlai (hereinafter referred to as Zhou): Does the Lao Theung nationality belong to the Thai ethnic family?

Kay: It belongs to the Malayan stock. Currently, there are 12 million people of Lao ethnicity in Thailand.

Chairman: More than in your country.

Kay: We have also developed cultural and educational undertakings, opened primary and secondary schools, and trained some teachers.

Overall, in the past two years, we have achieved victories on all fronts. We view these victories through comparison.

In the history of Laos, there has never been such intense and fierce fighting. For us, this was a very severe test. Having passed this test, the victories we have achieved are relatively steady and comprehensive.

At the same time, our Lao revolution has also produced some new factors. In terms of Party leadership, through this struggle, our Party has gradually grown stronger and made progress in leading the struggle compared to before.

Of course, there are also some weaknesses. For instance, in the areas behind enemy lines, our work is still very weak now.

Chairman: Are you talking about the villages behind enemy lines, or the cities behind enemy lines?

Kay: Both cities and villages are included.

Now, because we have a liberated area, cadres are all willing to work in the liberated areas and unwilling to go behind enemy lines. We encounter some ideological obstacles and difficulties.

We have twice raided the Luang Prabang airport. Because we had the support and cooperation of the masses, the attacks were carried out relatively well.

We have another weakness. The masses are very good, but we have not yet mobilized them well. In the past, when we conducted mass movements, we mainly did some pilot projects in Sam Neua, and later did some pilot projects in various provinces. Recently, we have launched them universally nationwide.

Chairman: It is necessary to win over the masses.

Kay: We have also encountered some economic difficulties. Due to the destruction caused by the war, the economic difficulties are somewhat greater.

Chairman: In fighting the enemy, building the army, and working with the Party and the masses, you have already gained experience.

How many years have you been fighting and building liberated areas?

Kay: It has been 22 years from the start of the fighting until now.

Chairman: You've been fighting for so long!

Kay: There were interruptions in between, but the interruptions were not long, the longest being less than two years. After the signing of the Geneva Agreement, fighting stopped for one year. Shortly after the halt, U.S. imperialism launched an attack on Sam Neua.

Chairman: When was that?

Kay: 1955.

Zhou: During the Sananikone government.

Kay: Later, the Vientiane Agreement was reached, and fighting stopped for a while. After less than two years of coalition government (i.e., from November 1957 to May 1959), war broke out again.

Fighting lasted from May 1959 until 1962, when the second Geneva Agreement was concluded. After the agreement was signed, it stopped for eight months, then started again and has continued until now.

Chairman: Agreements are useless.

Kay: The scale of the war is now getting larger and larger than before. In the past, the enemy did not mobilize many troops for battles. Now, every time they fight, they have to mobilize a large number of troops. Because they have no morale, they have to use manpower to bolster their courage. Morale is now so low that they need to send planes and have artillery coordination; otherwise, they dare not come out to fight.

Chairman: You have no planes, but don't you still fight just the same? We are just like you; for more than twenty years in the past, we also had no planes. Those with planes lose battles, and those without planes win. The First World War hardly had any planes; they came in the Second World War.

Kay: Looking at the development of the situation, according to our analysis, the first possibility at present is that U.S. imperialism continues to intensify its special war in Laos, coordinating with its battlefield in South Vietnam. The main feature of its intensified special war is strengthening air force bombing. Thailand may also contribute some troops to help it attack our liberated areas. The U.S. might also use helicopters to send its troops to Middle and Lower Laos to occupy some important areas, and after consolidating them, the American soldiers might withdraw.

The second possibility is that the U.S. sends troops into Middle and Lower Laos and fights directly there. If it sends troops into North Vietnam, it might simultaneously attack our Upper Laos.

We now analyze that the second possibility is not very evident, because the U.S. is currently encountering relatively great difficulties.

In this regard, we must be ready at all times and constantly heighten our vigilance. We are already mentally prepared.

Chairman: If you are prepared and they don't come, that's also fine.

Kay: We must also consider the first possibility. Just as the Americans are defeated in South Vietnam, they will also be defeated in Laos. If we achieve victory, the situation might ease somewhat.

We must now prepare for the worst.

Chairman: It is very important to develop guerrilla warfare within Thailand now.

Kay: Our basic policy remains unchanged: we must continue to preserve the liberated areas, consolidate and build our liberated areas, build the liberated areas into a region with the scale of a state, to serve as a base area for liberating the whole country. At the same time, we must establish a new system in the liberated areas, so that the hearts of people nationwide yearn for our liberated areas. When conditions permit, we will expand our liberated areas.

Chairman: Expand them into Thailand.

Kay: The second policy: we must attach great importance to the work in the areas behind enemy lines and strengthen it.

Chairman: The main areas behind enemy lines are in Thailand, not in your own country. Once you communize Thailand, they won't be able to get away from this place.

They are afraid you will go into Thailand; the rural forces there are weak.

Zhou: Thailand has already sent troops to South Vietnam.

Chairman: Whether they send troops or not, they have no diplomatic relations with Thailand; American planes come from Thailand to bomb you.

Kay: We have too few personnel now.

Chairman: Add the 12 million, and you'll have many.

Kay: We must now strengthen our work behind enemy lines. As Chairman Mao just asked us, we must strengthen our work in the cities and villages.

Our policy is to carry out political work and military work simultaneously. At the same time, we must promote the transformation of various areas, from guerrilla zones to guerrilla base areas, and from guerrilla base areas to liberated areas.

Chairman: What is the population of the whole of Thailand?

Kay: Roughly 30 million people.

Chairman: And the area?

Zhou: Slightly larger than Burma.

Chairman: Now Phouma is no longer asking for meetings either.

Kay: Phoui Sananikone and Kouprasith are both rightists.

Chairman: Even more right-wing than Phoumi Nosavan.

Kay: Correct.

Chairman: Besides Nosavan, who else is there?

Kay: There are also Kouprasith, Phoui Sananikone, and Oune Sananikone. Oune Sananikone often writes articles with extremely reactionary views.

Sometimes Phouma asked to meet with us, and we said that the conditions were not right at the moment. If a meeting was to be held, our representative was stationed in Vientiane. We still had a group of people there. Originally, we had a company in that area; later, some were withdrawn, and in reality only a platoon remained. The impression we made on the local people there was very good. We showed films at our representative office, and many ordinary people came to watch. Especially a film that China helped us produce—when it was screened, a lot of people came to see it.

Chairman: Oh!

Kai: The police tried to drive the ordinary people away, but they wouldn’t leave. In the end, with no other choice, the police themselves also went to watch.

Later, they, in the name of the Ministry of the Interior, issued an order forbidding us from showing films, and at the same time, they even threw grenades into the premises.

The political impact of our film screenings was very good.

Chairman: Now that they won’t let you show films anymore, what are you going to do?

Kai: We’ll just wage a struggle with them. Within the confines of our station, we still have the right to screen them.

Chairman: They still allow you to be in Vientiane. If they wanted to get rid of you, it would be very easy for them.

Kai: Our institution in Vientiane took the initiative to engage in production ourselves, which made a relatively good impression on the ordinary people.

Chairman: That’s good.

Kai: When our soldiers go out on the streets to buy things, the police pay close attention even to a single person.

Chairman: It has a bit of the flavor of the Chongqing negotiations.

Kai: That was also how Comrade Zhou Enlai operated in Chongqing back then.

Now, even the ordinary people in the enemy-occupied areas see very clearly that only we can save the common people. In the past, they still held some illusions about Phouma; now, those illusions are growing fainter and fainter. Even the middle strata have this tendency. The King also harbors a certain degree of nationalist sentiment.

Chairman: You should work on the King.

Kai: The King sometimes also disagrees with Phouma’s methods. We have written letters to him as well.

Chairman: Do more work on him. Does he administer just a Luang Prabang?

Kai: In reality, he doesn’t have much power. They just let him stay in Luang Prabang and keep him provided for, that’s all.

We believe that although Laos still faces many difficulties, the overall situation remains very good.

Chairman: Are there still Vietnamese comrades working in your area?

Kai: There are still advisors.

Chairman: Only advisors?

Kai: There are also some volunteer soldiers.

The United States is very distressed about Route 9 and can do nothing about it. McNamara wanted to build some kind of defense line there, from South Vietnam all the way to Savannakhet, to serve as their blockade line.

Chairman: They’ve been clamoring about it for years, but have yet to make a move.

McNamara did not support further combat because so many tens of thousands are consumed every year, including those killed, those wounded, and those who fall sick. In actual fact, only around a hundred thousand or so are capable of fighting.

Zhou: In the Central Highlands region, the fighting lasted over twenty days, and the losses were huge.

Kai: Currently in Lower Laos, the strategic locations are, one, Route 9, and the other, the Bolaven Plateau. Now, both the United States and Japan attach a great deal of importance to this area.

Chairman: How many Japanese are there?

Kai: In the past, there were about 150 Japanese in Laos. During this visit by Sato to Vientiane, he held secret talks with Phouma and signed an agreement, preparing to increase the number by 500 more.

Zhou: What sort of people are they?

Kai: Some agricultural technicians. They say the land there is very fertile and they want to develop that area. Though they are called agricultural technicians, it is very likely they might send in some military personnel.

We have two relatively important strategic areas, one is the Plain of Jars, the other is the Bolaven Plateau.

Chairman: Good. I am very glad to hear your briefing. Are you returning to your country now, or will you stay in China for a while?

Kai: After meeting with you today, Chairman, we will go to Shanghai tomorrow, then on to Guangzhou for a visit before returning to our country.

Chairman: Has it only been the three of you who came?

Kai: Correct.

Chairman: What kind of work does he (pointing to Sanan) do?

Kai: He does propaganda work; he is our Head of the Propaganda Department.

Chairman: And that one (pointing to Meiso)?

Kai: He is Comrade Meiso, who met with you, Chairman, together with me the last time. He is the representative of our Party stationed in Hanoi.

Chairman: Alright then, let’s leave it at that. Thank you.

(At parting, Kaysone held Chairman Mao’s hand for a long while and said: I wish Chairman Mao good health! May Chairman Mao live for ten thousand years without bounds!)

Source: "Newly Discovered Speeches of Mao Zedong in Confidential Archives", edited by Song Yongyi, National History Publishing House, July 2018.

Thanks to Vissarion for collection and organization.