Nan Ping (hereinafter referred to as Nan): Chairman!
Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): Nan Ping, are you Nan Ping? Is your ancestor
Nan Wuyun? You are the descendant of Nan Wuyun, and you have experience in handling
these matters.
Nan: I am following the Chairman's instructions.
Chen Liyun (hereinafter referred to as Chen): Chairman!
Mao: Chen Liyun, you should be under the leadership of Nan Ping as the centre. It would be
bad if your Air Force 5th Army is stronger than Nan Ping. Isn't it?
Chen: Yes.
Mao: The Air Force 5th Army and the 20th Army should learn from each other; the 20th
Army should learn from the Air Force 5th Army, and the 20th Army is the main body, and the
Air Force 5th Army should obey.
Mao: Do you obey or not?
Chen: Obey.
Mao: Our army has always had two styles of work. One is the democratic style, with good
relations between officers and soldiers, that is, learning from each other and conducting
self-criticism, and maintaining good relations between superiors and subordinates. The
other is scolding and cursing, putting on airs, treating people unequally, lacking democracy,
and poor relations between superiors and subordinates. Soldiers are always scolding and
cursing. It is great if a platoon leader or a company commander emerges from a village. It is
even more amazing if a battalion commander emerges! It is amazing if a master teacher
emerges from my village. Some of our marshals always scold and curse people. If you are
really right, don't scold people. Now our cadres are too serious and tense, and lack unity and
liveliness. I have repeatedly talked about the relationship between superiors and
subordinates in Shanghai. There are two ways for a person to be punished: one is that he
made a mistake and was punished; the other is that the bad people punished the good
people, and the good people were punished. People who have never made mistakes have a
big shortcoming. Nan Ping, have you ever been punished?
Nan: No.
Mao: This is a big shortcoming.
Mao: Have you ever been persecuted?



Chen: I was persecuted during the Three Antis Campaign.
Mao: Good! The Red Guards and factory workers are divided into two groups. One factory
and one school are divided into two groups. I can't understand it. Both sides have backers.
It's better to make a mistake. Nan Ping, why did you send the headquarters of the
Independent First Division to Wenzhou?
Nan: The Wenzhou Military Sub-district is paralysed. Send them to take charge of the work
in Wenzhou.
Mao: The more paralysed the better. The rotten ones are easier to deal with.
(After listening to Nan Ping's report on the situation in Wenzhou)
Mao: Why did the "Wenzhou Federation"” counterattack Wenzhou City in three directions?
Nan: After the "Wenzhou Federation of Workers" took control of Wenzhou City, how did
they treat the other group? They made a mistake in policy and treated the "Wenzhou
Federation" with a retaliatory attitude.
Mao: Divisional commanders and political commissars should not be subjected to struggles
at every level there. They can be transferred to military regions. Don’t do this to Long Qian
and Zhang Xiuyou, using the jet-style method or making them kneel as punishment. They are
very upset when they make mistakes, but you are fighting them at every level. This is not
good! Don’t do this. We didn’t do this to Huang Botao, Wang Yaowu, and Du Zhangming! We
shouldn’t do this. The struggles against Chen Pixian and Cao Huoqiu in Shanghai were said to
be more civilized, but they were accused of being dishonest when they defended themselves
for a few words. They were just one or two people, while you are hundreds of people. In the
long run, this is not good for the style we have cultivated. We have always been united in
criticism and unity, and we have always been reasonable and allowed to defend ourselves.
Now it has been messed up and destroyed.
Mao: You must be cautious about the opinions of both factions. There will be struggles in a
family with red-violent views. Some children hold red-violent views, while others hold
revolutionary views... If one family is divided into two, then the family will also be divided
into two factions. Both factions must be listened to. In my family, two children are rebels and
two are conservatives. Rebellion and conservatism are accidental. One of the eight orders in
the past was to educate children and teach them not to listen. We don’t have that much
time to educate them.
(Mao Zedong asked Nan Ping and Chen Liyun to convey his regards to the commanders and
deputy commanders of the 20th Army and the 5th Air Force when they reported to Mao
Zedong that Commander Huang of the 5th Air Force was not performing well.)
Chairman Mao: Don’t just look at one particular moment or one particular incident. He has
fought in the war. If a comrade makes a mistake, you must help him if you can. You must be



cautious with the cadres of the provincial and prefectural committees. It is not good for the
Red Guards to spread everywhere. Don’t let some cadres off the hook, but don’t make them
too hard. Things like jet-style punishment, hanging black cards, kneeling as punishment, and
house searches should be prohibited.
Mao: There are several cliques in Jiangxi, such as the Central Soviet Area, the Hunan Banner,
the Fujian-Zhejiang-Jiangxi Area, and so on. I was afraid that some comrades in the First and
Third Armies would make mistakes, and I was angry that some comrades in the Fourth Front
Army would make mistakes. As a result, Chen Zaidao emerged. As for Xu Xiangqian, I must
protect him. The Red Guards want to overthrow him, but I will protect myself. This is the
overall situation. There are contradictions, but unity must be achieved. Wang Ming was
elected at the Seventh and Eighth Congresses to elect members of the Central Committee.
Now we must restore that tradition. We should not beat people to death with one blow if
they make mistakes. It is too easy to overthrow a person now. All the Red Guards need to do
is to blast him. Even if he is stubborn to the end, it doesn’t matter. Give him food. The main
thing is to train him.
Mao: Zhang Wentian was the emperor for ten years. When he was the general secretary, he
wanted to take charge of military affairs. I told him: Don't take charge. What happened? He
went to the lower levels to incite. Later, he got together with Gao Gang and approved 62
traitors to surrender. When he was in Ruijin, they were divided internally. He and Wang
Jiaxiang were excluded and did not stand on Xiang Ying's side, but the Zunyi Conference
could not have been without him. The Red Guards wanted to take them out for struggle, but
I disagreed. Now the Red Guards have messed up the unity, criticism, and unity, and
destroyed this tradition. They proposed wearing dunce caps, hanging plaques, kneeling as
punishment, and house searches. They quoted my "Report on the Investigation of the
Peasant Movement in Hunan", which was against landlords, local tyrants and evil tyrants!
Well! Now he is a cadre! He has been a cadre for decades and has done some good things.
Mao: Chen Yi fought in the war but was not very prominent. He was more right-wing. How
could Yao Dengshan be the Minister of Foreign Affairs? He caused a few disasters. There are
bad people, black hands, and counter-revolutionaries in the diplomatic circle who say Ye
Jianying and Xu Xiangqian are black hands, but I don’t think that’s necessarily true. The black
hand is mainly Wang Li. There is a conspiracy group, and it focuses on attacking the Prime
Minister. After the Prime Minister is defeated, they will attack others. Britain took advantage
of this opportunity and sent a note to Chen Yi himself. Now they are attacking Peking
University again, and Ju Dafu and Han Aijing are involved. Some students and worker leaders
are unstable.
(During the conversation, when talking about Nan Wuyun)
Mao: Are you Nan Ping a descendant of Nan Wuyun?
(Mao Zedong leaned back, smoked a cigarette, and said a few words in a concluding tone)



Mao: Kong Ming captured Meng Huo seven times12, and we Communists can not only
capture him seven times, but also eight times! I didn’t agree with killing Zhang Huizan13 in a
counter-encirclement and suppression campaign, mainly because Peng Dehuai wanted to kill
him. Zhang Huizan was not only a division commander but also a general commander.
Mao: It’s not good for the army to stay in one place for a long time. He can’t bear to leave
his relatives and friends, brothers-in-law and aunts-in-law. The gold, silver and treasures are
too heavy a burden. You can send them home! Or give them to the poor and lower-middle
peasants! Don’t love money like your life.












12 A story from the romance of the Three Kingdoms. Kong Ming was a respectful name for Zhuge Liang who led
a campaign in southern China against rebels including Meng Huo. Meng Huo was captured and released seven
times by Kong Ming, showing the futility of fighting against him, and eventually gave up his rebellion.
13 Zhang Huizan (1884 –1931), a native of Changsha, Hunan Province, was a general of the National
Government of the Republic of China and the National Revolutionary Army. Zhang Huizan opposed Yuan Shikai,
so he left his post on Beijing and absconded back to Hunan Province to participate in the National Defense War
and organize the army against Yuan. During the Guangzhou Nationalist Government, due to the reorganization
of the Hunan Army, his position was also changed to the commander of the 4th Division of the Second Army of
the National Revolutionary Army, which later joined the Northern Expedition of the National Revolutionary
Army.  After the victory of the Northern Expedition, Zhang Huizan was reappointed as the deputy commander
of the 18th Division of the National Revolutionary Army. At the end of 1930, the 18th Division was involved in
the first Jiangxi War to suppress the Communist Party in Jiangxi Province, but he was captured by the Red Army
in the Battle of Longgang. Zhang Huizan and Mao Zedong were old friends from the same hometown and
participated in the expulsion movement together in Hunan. It is said that Mao Zedong once said that he would
not kill Zhang Huizan, but in the end he still asked He Changgong to escort Zhang Huizan to a public trial
meeting, and then because the venue was out of control, the masses killed Zhang Huizan by beheading him.
After being executed, Zhang's head was put into a bamboo cage and thrown down the Gan River. On February
2, the officers and soldiers of the National Army found the bamboo cage near Shengang Mountain in Ji'an and
salvaged it. According to Chiang Kai-shek's order, he was buried in his hometown of Yuelu Mountain in
Changsha. Its mausoleum was destroyed during the Cultural Revolution and was renovated by the Changsha
Municipal Government in May 2008 and a monument was erected to commemorate it.