Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): When did Comrade Shehu [2] arrive in China?
Zhou Enlai: Last May.
Mao: Last May, I discussed this question with him: Will revisionism triumph or will Marxism-
Leninism triumph? This is a question of the struggle between two lines. I also said that it is
still unclear which side will triumph, and no conclusion can be drawn. There are two
possibilities. The first possibility is that the bourgeoisie triumphs, revisionism triumphs, and
overthrows us; the second possibility is that we overthrow revisionism and the bourgeoisie.
Why do I prioritize the first possibility over our failure? I feel that this way of looking at the
problem is more advantageous. It means not to underestimate the enemy.
For many years, the struggle within our Party remained hidden from the public. For example,
in January 1962, we convened a meeting of seven thousand cadres, including county-level
Party secretaries and above. At that time, I delivered a speech in which I argued that
revisionism was going to overthrow us. If we didn't take action now and wage struggle,
China would become a fascist dictatorship in a matter of years, perhaps a dozen years at
best, or even decades at best. This speech was not published publicly, but was distributed
internally. It will be reviewed later, and some of the content may need revision. However, the
problem was already apparent at that time. In 1962, June 3, June 4, June 5, and June 6—five
years. Why do we say that we haven't done much work well? I'm not being polite; I'm telling
you the truth. In the past, we only targeted individual issues and individuals. For example,
over the past seventeen years, we waged struggles against Gao Gang and Rao Shushi [3]. We
punished their clique from the winter of 1953 to the spring of 1954. Then, in 1959, we
punished the clique of Peng Dehuai, Huang Kecheng, and Zhang Wentian [4]. In the past, we
waged struggles in the countryside, factories, and cultural circles, and carried out the
Socialist Education Movement, but we couldn't solve the problem because we didn't find a
form or method to openly and comprehensively mobilize the masses from the bottom up to
expose our dark side.
This struggle had been in the works for some time. In November of the previous year, a
critical article was published against the historian Wu Han [5]. Writing this article in Beijing
wasn't feasible, and they couldn't organize a team to write it. So they had to go to Shanghai
and find Yao Wenyuan. They put together a team and wrote the article.
Kabo (hereinafter referred to as Ka): Was it written under the instructions of Comrade Mao
Zedong?
Chairman Mao: I didn't even know it was written at the beginning. It was Jiang Qing and her
group who did it. They gave it to me to read. They told me they were going to criticize it.

They couldn't organize it in Beijing, so they went to Shanghai to organize it, and I didn't even
know about it. When the article was finished, they gave it to me, saying it was for your
exclusive viewing, and not for people like Zhou Enlai and Kang Sheng. If they wanted to see
it, they would have to show it to people like Liu Shaoqi, Deng Xiaoping, Peng Zhen, and Lu
Dingyi, and Liu and Deng were against publishing it. After it was published, all provinces
reprinted it, but Beijing didn't. I was in Shanghai at the time. Later, I suggested printing a
pamphlet. All provinces agreed to distribute it, but the Beijing publishing house refused.
Peng Zhen notified the publishing house not to reprint it. The Beijing Municipal Committee
was like a city committee that couldn't get in, couldn't get in. Isn't it being reorganized now?
Even the reorganized Municipal Committee wasn't good enough; it needs to be reorganized
again. When the decision to reorganize the Beijing Municipal Committee was publicly
announced [6], we added two garrison divisions. Now, Beijing has three army divisions and
one mechanized division, for a total of four. That's why you can move around, and so can we.
The two divisions we had before were good, but they were scattered terribly, defending
everywhere.
There are also unreliable members of the current Red Guards, the royalists. They are inactive
during the day but active at night. They wear glasses and masks, carry sticks and knives, and
cause trouble everywhere. They have killed some good people, killed a few people, and
injured hundreds. Most of them are children of high-ranking cadres, such as He Long, Lu
Dingyi, and Luo Ruiqing. Therefore, our army is not without problems. For example, He Long
was a member of the Politburo, and Luo Ruiqing was Secretary of the Secretariat and Chief
of the General Staff. Luo Ruiqing's problems were dealt with in December of the previous
year; the people in the Beijing Municipal Party Committee were dealt with in May of last
year. The big-character poster movement was launched on June 1st of last year. The Red
Guards were mobilized in August of last year. Didn't some of you meet with Nie Yuanzi [7] of
Peking University? Who went to meet her?
Ka: Comrade Shitu Caili.
Mao: She wrote a big-character poster on May 25th of last year. I was in Hangzhou at the
time, and I didn't see it until noon on June 1st. I immediately called Kang Sheng and Chen
Boda and told them to broadcast it. Then the big-character posters were everywhere!
Baluku: The big-character posters sent a signal.
Mao: It wasn't written by me. It was written by Nie Yuanzi and seven others. The Red Guards
were organized at the Tsinghua University Affiliated Middle School and the Peking University
Affiliated Middle School. They showed me a document. On August 1st, I wrote a letter to the
Red Guards at both schools, and then the movement took off. On August 18th, I met with
hundreds of thousands of Red Guards. Then, from early to mid-August, the Eleventh Plenary
Session of the Eighth Central Committee was held. It was then that I wrote a 200-character
big-character poster, accusing certain leaders, from the central government to the local

governments, of standing on a bourgeois standpoint, opposing students and the proletariat,
and creating a White Terror. This exposed the problems of Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping.
Right now, the decisive battle between the two fronts is not yet complete. The outcome will
likely be decided in February, March, and April. As for a complete resolution of the problem,
it may take until February, March, or April of next year, or even longer. Don't believe that
everyone in our party is a good person. Years ago, I said we would clear ourselves millions.
Wasn't that just empty talk? What can you do? There's nothing. Only by mobilizing the
masses can we do that. Without the masses, we have no solution. He won't listen [8]. Even
the People's Daily won't listen to me. The People's Daily seized power twice: the first time on
June 1st of last year, the second time this past January. I've publicly stated in the past that I
don't read the People's Daily. I even told the People's Daily editor-in-chief, "I don't read your
newspaper." I've said this several times, but he won't listen. My tactics don't work in China.
You can't enter any university or college. Because it was controlled by people like Liu Shaoqi,
Deng Xiaoping, and Lu Dingyi's Propaganda Department, Zhou Yang's Culture Department,
and the Ministry of Higher Education and the Ministry of General Education, there was
nothing we could do.
Many people have been exposed within our Party, and they can be roughly divided into
several groups: The first group are those engaged in the democratic revolution. They are
willing to cooperate during the democratic revolution phase, but their goal is the democratic
revolution and the overthrow of capitalism. They support overthrowing imperialism and
feudalism, and they also support overthrowing bureaucratic capitalism. However, they do
not support actually overthrowing national capitalism. They support distributing land, but
they do not support distributing it to the peasants and organizing cooperatives. This group is
the so-called veteran cadres.
The second group of people joined the Party after liberation. Eighty percent joined after
1949. Some of them became cadres, serving as branch secretaries, Party committee
secretaries, and even higher positions such as county, prefectural, and provincial Party
committees, as well as members of the Central Committee.
The third group consisted of those Kuomintang members we took in. Some of them were
former Communists who were captured by the Kuomintang and later defected, publishing
anti-Communist advertisements in the newspapers. At the time, we didn't know they were
anti-Communist, nor did we know what their so-called "performance procedures" meant.
Now, upon investigation, we've discovered that they supported the Kuomintang and
opposed the Communist Party.
The fourth group consists of the children of the bourgeoisie, landlords, and rich peasants.
After liberation, they entered school, even universities, and gained some power. Not all of
them are bad; many sided with us. However, some were counter-revolutionaries.

These are roughly the few groups. In short, they are not numerous in China, only a few
percent. Their class base, such as landlords, rich peasants, capitalists, and the Kuomintang, is
only a few percent—at most 5 percent. So, out of a population of 700 million, that's only 35
million people. They are also scattered across villages, cities, and neighbourhoods. If 35
million people were gathered together and armed, they would be a formidable army.
Ba: Even if they were united, they would still be an army without any ideas.
Mao: They are a perishing class. Their representatives, among over 30 million people,
number at most a few hundred thousand, and they are scattered across cities, streets,
villages, schools, and government offices. So, when the big-character posters, the mass
movements, and the Red Guards appeared, they were terrified.
Also, some other things have been causing chaos. They've given me so many titles, like Great
Teacher, Great Leader, Great Commander, and Great Helmsman. I'm not happy about that.
But what can we do? They're doing it everywhere. Some people have suggested retaining
the title of Teacher. I'm just an elementary school teacher, so an ordinary teacher would be
fine. As for Professor, I can't really call myself that. I haven't been to university, have you all?
Ka: Not a single one.
Mao: Marx was a university student, Lenin was a university student, Stalin attended middle
school, and I only attended middle school. I'm skeptical of a large number of university
students, especially those studying the humanities and social sciences. If these people aren't
educated and the Cultural Revolution isn't carried out, they're very dangerous. They'll
become revisionists in the future. Those who study literature can't write novels or poetry;
those who study philosophy can't write philosophical articles or explain social phenomena.
And those who study politics and law are all bourgeois, and we haven't produced any good
textbooks. And those who study economics are full of revisionists. However, there seems to
be some hope now, and the struggle is intense.
The masses are mobilized, and any bad stuff can be discarded. We are optimistic about
consolidating the dictatorship of the proletariat. Since my conversation with Comrade Shehu
last year, I've become more optimistic.
Ka: The revolutionary line represented by Chairman Mao has achieved tremendous victories.
Mao: We have achieved considerable victories, but not yet. We might be able to tell by this
time next year. However, we cannot be certain. Perhaps our generation will be defeated. I
am always prepared. If we are defeated, we will be defeated. There will always be people
who rise up and continue the fight. China is a country that some people brag about being
"peace-loving." That's not the case. We love struggle and are always ready to fight. I am one
of them. Being combative makes it harder to become revisionist.
Ka: Without struggle, it is impossible. Otherwise, how can revolution be achieved?

Mao: That's right! It's not as easy for China to engage in revisionism as it was for the Soviet
Union. China is a semi-feudal, semi-colonial country that has suffered oppression for over a
hundred years. Our country was conquered by the army, and the schools remain intact.
Some Party and government leaders were appointed, like Cao Huoqiu and Chen Pixian [9].
(XX: They were elected later.) I don't believe in elections. China has over 2,000 counties. If
one county elects two, that's over 4,000 people, and if one county elects four, that's over
10,000. How could there be such a large space for a meeting? How could so many people
know each other? I was elected in Beijing, and many people never even saw me! How could
they be elected if they hadn't even seen me? We're just famous. The Premier and I are both
famous. We're not even as good as the Red Guards. Their leaders even spoke to them. But
the Red Guards are also constantly splitting. Last summer, the left was a tiny minority. Those
who stood on our side were oppressed and labeled "rightists," "counter-revolutionaries,"
and so on. In winter, things changed; the minority became the majority. Have you ever been
to Tsinghua University?
Ka: Yes.
Mao: In the past, the Jinggangshan group was a minority and was attacked. Nie Yuanzi of
Peking University was also a minority and was attacked. Now they are in the majority. They
were oppressed in the past, but they were very revolutionary in the minority. But in the
winter, they became the majority. Some of them split in December of last year and January
of this year. Some were revolutionary in the summer, but became counter-revolutionary in
the winter. Of course, we are working with Nie Yuanzi and Kuai Dafu [10] to persuade them.
However, whether these people are truly reliable remains to be seen. However, when things
get turbulent, there are always good people among them.
There's a kind of anarchist ideology circulating right now, with the slogan "doubt everything,
overthrow everything." It's backfiring on itself. You doubt everything, but what about
yourself? You overthrow everything, but what about yourself? The bourgeoisie needs to be
overthrown, but what about the proletariat? His theory simply doesn't work. However,
judging by the overall trend, those who have made mistakes always end up losing ground.
Look, on the streets of Beijing, there are slogans calling for "Down with me," "Down with
Comrade Lin Biao," and "Down with Zhou Enlai, Kang Sheng, Chen Boda, Jiang Qing, and so
on. There are even more slogans calling for the overthrow of Li Fuchun, Tan Zhenlin, Li
Xiannian, Chen Yi, Ye Jianying, Nie Rongzhen, and Xiao Hua. For example, Yang Chengwu was
the acting Chief of the General Staff, which oversaw several departments. The head and
deputy head of one of the operational departments wrote big-character posters calling for
his overthrow. That was instigated by He Long. The overthrow of Xiao Hua was instigated by
the Beijing Military Region Commander, Unit 121 [11]. Yesterday, they instigated the
overthrow of Xiao Hua, and a day or two later, he was overthrown himself. This is China's
second-largest military region! A commander, a political commissar, and even Zhang
Nansheng, the deputy political commissar, have all fallen. However, there is one truth that

remains unwavering. It's a truth that will never fall. The vast majority of the people—
workers, peasants, intellectuals, cadres, Party members, and League members—are good.
We must firmly believe in this truth.
Ba: They are all living forces.
Mao: Although some of them made mistakes and had shortcomings, and I'm not going to
cover up any flaws in Ye Jianying, Yang Chengwu, Shang Hua, or Wang Shusheng, they were
basically good people.
Ba: Mistakes can be made at work, and they can be corrected.
Mao Zedong: They can be corrected! I made some mistakes, too. Do I just not make mistakes
when others do? I did make some mistakes. I made mistakes in all aspects of politics and
military affairs. As for the specific mistakes I made, I don't have time now. If you stay a few
days, I can tell you. I don't hide my mistakes. Some people brag, saying I made no mistakes
at all. I don't believe them, and I'm unhappy. You didn't believe me once, and don't you
know what kind of person I am? You should have a little self-awareness.
If the sky and the earth turn black in China, don't be afraid. Believe this: it won't be
completely dark. Qin Shi Huang's reign lasted only sixteen years before it fell. Two men led
the uprising: Chen Sheng and Wu Guang [12]. They were both serfs at the time. The Red
Guards who are posting big-character posters in China today were attacked last summer and
labelled "counter-revolutionaries." We are all Spartacus, small-time people with no social
standing, looked down upon. We were oppressed and organized into the Communist Party.

[1] This is a conversation between Mao Zedong and others on February 8, 1967, when he
met with Hisni Kabo, a member of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the
Albanian Party of Labor, a member of the Central Secretariat, and the First Deputy Chairman
of the Council of Ministers of the Republic, and Bekir Balluku, a member of the Political
Bureau of the Central Committee of the Albanian Party of Labor, Deputy Chairman of the
Council of Ministers of the Republic and Minister of Defense.
[2] Shehu was then the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of Albania.
[3] During and around the 1953 National Conference on Finance and Economics and the
National Conference on Organizational Work, Gao Gang, then a member of the Political
Bureau of the CPC Central Committee and Chairman of the State Planning Commission, and
Rao Shushi, then a member of the CPC Central Committee and Minister of the Organization
Department, colluded to plot to split the Party and usurp supreme power in the Party and
state. Their anti-Party conspiracy was exposed and criticized at the Fourth Plenary Session of
the Seventh CPC Central Committee in 1954. In 1955, the National Congress of the
Communist Party of China passed a resolution expelling them from the Party.

[4] The enlarged meeting of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee held in
Lushan from July 2 to August 1, 1959, and the Eighth Plenary Session of the Eighth CPC
Central Committee held from August 2 to 16, adopted the "Resolution on the Mistakes of
the Anti-Party Group Headed by Comrade Peng Dehuai".
[5] On November 10, 1965, Yao Wenyuan published "On the New Historical Drama 'Hai Rui
Dismissed from Office'" in the Shanghai Wenhui Daily, criticizing Wu Han's 'Hai Rui Dismissed
from Office'.
[6] On June 4, 1966, the People's Daily published the news that the "CPC Central Committee
has decided to reorganize the Beijing Municipal Committee." The following is the news:
Xinhua News Agency reported on the 3rd: The CPC Central Committee has decided to
reorganize the Beijing Municipal Committee by appointing Comrade Li Xuefeng, First
Secretary of the CPC North China Bureau, concurrently as First Secretary of the Beijing
Municipal Committee and transferring Comrade Wu De, First Secretary of the CPC Jilin
Provincial Committee, as Second Secretary. Comrades Li Xuefeng and Wu De have already
assumed their posts. The work of the Socialist Cultural Revolution in Beijing will be directly
led by the new Municipal Committee.
[7] Nie Yuanzi, one of the leaders of the student movement at Peking University. Around
2:00 PM on May 25, 1966, seven members of the Peking University Philosophy
Department—Nie Yuanzi, Song Yixiu, Xia Jianyao, Yang Keming, Zhao Zhengyi, Gao Yunpeng,
and Li Raichen—posted a large-character poster titled "What on earth are Song Shuo, Lu
Ping, and Peng Peiyun doing during the Cultural Revolution?" on the east wall of the main
dining hall.
[8] Refers to Liu Shaoqi, who was the President of the country at the time and was in charge
of frontline work before the Cultural Revolution.
[9] Before the Cultural Revolution, Cao Huoqiu was the mayor of Shanghai, and Chen Pixian
was the party secretary of the Shanghai Municipal Party Committee. Both were overthrown
during the "January Storm." Cao Huoqiu was arrested in Shanghai in 1932 and released five
years later after completing certain formalities. He was labelled a traitor during the Cultural
Revolution. In 1930, Chen Pixian was captured by the enemy. Tu Yingda, who was also
captured with him, was killed after interrogation. However, the bandit battalion commander
adopted Chen Pixian as his son. During the Cultural Revolution, Chen Pixian was placed
under incommunicado investigation.
[10] Kuai Dafu, leader of the "Jinggangshan Corps," a Red Guard organization at Tsinghua
University.
[11] This refers to Yang Yong, then commander of the Beijing Military Region.
[12] Chen Sheng and Wu Guang led the first peasant uprising in Chinese history.