(August 5, 1965)
Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): I studied for thirteen years. For six years I studied Confucius, which was feudalism. The subsequent seven years were capitalism; I didn't learn a bit of Marxism. At that time, I didn't even know the names of Marx or Lenin. I also taught for three years, in an elementary school, and was an elementary school principal, so I have some experience too. I came from the background of an elementary school teacher. I once believed in God. The God I believed in was a Chinese God, not a foreign God; I believed in polytheism. There are gods everywhere in China: houses have gods, doors have gods, the rocks on the mountains have gods, and the rivers have gods, called the Dragon King. The organization of gods is always established according to the organization of humans. Humans have an emperor, so heaven has an emperor; humans have civil officials, so heaven has civil officials; humans have military officials for fighting wars, so heaven has celestial soldiers and generals. They are all made in the model of humans. The German philosopher and materialist Feuerbach was the first to see through to the fact that gods are a reflection of human ideology. His books must be read. Of course, Hegel's books must also be read. Lenin said that one cannot become a communist without reading the books of bourgeois materialism. One should also read the books of idealism. I once believed in Kant, and I have also read the books of the ancient Greek Aristotle, read the books of Plato, and read the books of Socrates. Without reading the books of idealism and metaphysics, one cannot understand materialism and dialectics. This is my experience, and also Lenin's experience, and also Marx's experience.
[1]
This is part of a conversation between Mao Zedong and a delegation led by Aidit, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Indonesia.

*On New Democracy* was written in 1940. I joined the Communist Party and fought for thirteen years. Before these thirteen years, there were another six years, a total of nineteen years, before I came to recognize what kind of China China was, and what kind of political program, economic program, and cultural program should be adopted. It took nineteen years. You see, how difficult it is to recognize objective things. Now you are beginning to go to the countryside. It also took me ten years to understand the countryside.
Aidit (hereinafter referred to as Ai): Could we ask Comrade Mao Zedong to talk about how rural work is done?
Mao: My experience is quite similar to yours. I studied for thirteen years and was an elementary school teacher for three years, but I knew nothing of Marx or Lenin, because the October Revolution had not yet happened. It was only after the October Revolution that I came to know of Marx and Lenin and read some pamphlets. I also read Kautsky's books; at that time Kautsky was still a revolutionary.
The situation forced me to run to the Communist Party. In 1920, the Socialist Youth League was established, and I was the person in charge for Hunan province. In 1921, our Party was founded and held its First National Congress, with twelve delegates. Among these twelve people, a number were sacrificed, a number turned traitor, and now two remain, myself and Comrade Dong Biwu[1]. At that time, the so-called revolution was muddle-headed. We only knew that we wanted revolution, but we didn't understand how to go about it. We were not clear about the situation in China and the world, and not clear about the basic viewpoints of Marxism, just muddle-headed. At that time, there were many people like me.
After the Party was founded, we struggled for a few years, and later engaged in Kuomintang-Communist cooperation. We helped the Kuomintang conquer the country, carrying out the Northern Expedition War. In 1927, they started killing people throughout the country. At that time, our peasant associations had more than ten million members, the labor unions had more than one million members, and there were also armed workers' picket corps and peasant self-defense forces. Under the leadership of Chen Duxiu[2], we (including myself) were not mentally prepared. Of course, we had some preparation, but not full
[1]
Dong Biwu was then Vice Chairman of the People's Republic of China.
[2]
Chen Duxiu was General Secretary of the Central Committee of the CPC during the Great Revolution period.

preparation. Within a few months, all the labor unions, peasant associations, and picket corps were wiped out. I cannot play the hero, I am not qualified, because I was not prepared to fight a war, even when Jiang Jieshi invited me to fight. They killed people, so we also killed people.
Jiang Jieshi and the imperialists were our good teachers; their teaching method was killing people. At that time, we studied it a bit: why were they able to kill us? It was nothing more than that they had two hands, that's the first point; the second point is that they had guns in their hands. We communists also have two hands; what we lacked were guns. What was to be done? Could we seize the enemy's guns? So we did just that, seizing the enemy's guns to fight the enemy. We cannot rely only on foreign countries; it is no good to be superstitious about the "international line." The Nanchang Uprising was led by Comrade Zhou Enlai. At that time we had two and a half armies, but in reality, it was less than two and a half.
Ai: How many men were in an army?
Zhou Enlai: Over ten thousand.
Mao: Less than twenty thousand, about fifteen thousand. After the uprising, they did not pull the troops to a place with mountains for support, but instead took them to the seaside to wait for Soviet aid, giving up Jiangxi as well. When the enemy attacked, the majority were annihilated, with only eight hundred men remaining. You should also know this piece of history. Do not rely on God, do not rely on foreign countries, rely on yourselves.
In the ten years of civil war, our army of three hundred thousand was reduced to just twenty-five thousand. We made the mistake of the "Left" deviationist line three times, and the third time was the most serious. The likes of Deng Xiaoping[1], Liu Shaoqi, and Mao Zedong didn't count for anything, had no power at all, not a shred of Marxism, while they were one hundred percent Marxist. Comrade Deng Xiaoping was a "sectarian," part of an "anti-Party clique." In ten years, I was "expelled from the Party" once and driven out of the Red Army three times.
They were superstitious about the "international line," superstitious about attacking big cities, superstitious about that whole set of foreign political, military, organizational, and cultural policies. We opposed that set of excessively Leftist policies. We had some Marxism, but we were isolated. This Bodhisattva of mine, which used to be efficacious, later became inefficacious. They soaked this wooden Bodhisattva of mine in a cesspit, then took it out, making it stink terribly. At that time, not only did not a single person come to my door, not even a ghost came. My tasks were to eat, sleep, and shit. It's a good thing my head wasn't chopped off. They wanted to seize the big cities, thinking to achieve a quick victory. The result was that all the base areas in the south were lost, and the underground Party in the White Areas was also almost completely wiped out. Later, the Twenty-five Thousand *Li* Long March was carried out. Now the whole world says the Twenty-five Thousand *Li* Long March was great. Do you believe it? I believe it, and yet I don't. It was because mistakes were made that we had to run. The result of running was that out of three hundred thousand people, only twenty-five thousand remained. At this point, we learned our lesson. The Long March took a year. Not many people were left, but these people were very precious.
Only with the experience of Chen Duxiu's right opportunism, the experience of the failure of the Great Revolution, and the experience of the shrinking of the base areas during the ten years of civil war was it possible to write a few books on military affairs, was it possible to write *On New Democracy*, and was it possible in the first half of the year of Japan's surrender to hold a congress of unity and have all the Central Committee members and Politburo members who had made mistakes be re-elected.
Ai: How does Comrade Mao Zedong arrange his time for work and study?
Mao: My lifestyle is the "American lifestyle." When Americans sleep, I also sleep. Last night, because I was going to see you, I was considering what issues to discuss, and I haven't slept yet. My health is very good, do you believe it? If I sleep too much, like that day I slept for nine hours, then it's terrible, my body doesn't feel well. Now, seventy to eighty percent of the work is done by comrades like Liu Shaoqi, Zhou Enlai, and Deng Xiaoping. Comrade Deng Xiaoping is the General Secretary, and Comrade Zhou Enlai is the Premier; they work better than I do. I have a bit of "bureaucratism," which is necessary. If it weren't so, it would be bad.
Ai: What is the advantage of working at night and sleeping during the day?
Mao: It's a habit. During the war, many telegrams would come in at night, and I could only sleep after replying to them. Others say I am not in sync with the Americans, but I disagree. When they get up, I also get up; when they sleep, I also sleep. It's just that the Americans don't know this.
There can be no compromise with the United States. If they want to fight, we will fight; we are already prepared. Once war breaks out, a single atomic bomb could destroy this Great Hall. Then we would be liberated and could return to our past life, but we wouldn't be able to host guests.
Most of these comrades of ours are also military men. Fighting a war is not very difficult; you learn as soon as you start fighting. The enemy is our teacher.
Ai: Because our comrades are dealing with labor union issues and other problems, the time for meetings to discuss Comrade Mao Zedong's military works often gets squeezed out. Once war breaks out, this situation will change.
Mao: When fighting a war, don't carry books with you. You must be ruthless and throw them away, and fight the war seriously. In the past, China had a Whampoa Military Academy. Jiang Jieshi was the commandant, Comrade Zhou Enlai was the director of the political department, and comrades Lin Biao[1], Luo Ruiqing[2], and Xu Xiangqian[3] were all Jiang Jieshi's students. Within our Party, very few people have attended a military academy; more than ninety-five percent have never been to a military academy. Don't be superstitious about military science. As long as you go and fight, it's not difficult at all.
Ai: Before Comrade Mao Zedong participated in fighting, had he read any books on military affairs?
Mao: I hadn't read a single one. I had read *Romance of the Three Kingdoms*, but I had not read Sun Tzu's *Art of War*. After I had fought in wars, that was after arriving in the Northwest, in order to sum up experience, I read some Chinese and foreign military books. Books cannot be relied upon, including the books written by Engels, and also including the books I myself have written. The main thing is to rely on creating your own experience. Most of Jiang Jieshi's officers had been to school; ninety-five percent of our military men had not. Of course, it wouldn't work without the five percent of intellectuals either. But it's not necessary to first study military affairs and then go fight. War is a great school.
Ai: Even so, we must still strive to study Comrade Mao Zedong's military works.
Mao: When it comes time to fight, you must cast them aside and create your own experience.
[1]
Lin Biao entered the fourth class of the Whampoa Military Academy in the winter of 1925.
[2]
Luo Ruiqing entered the Wuhan Central Military and Political School in the winter of 1926; this school was a branch of the Whampoa Military Academy.
[3]
Xu Xiangqian entered the first class of the Whampoa Military Academy in April 1924.