Chairman: How long has Mr. Malraux been here?

Malraux: About fifteen or sixteen days. I met with Vice Premier Chen Yi and visited Yan'an and some other places. After returning, I met with Premier Zhou Enlai.

Chairman: Oh, so you went to Yan'an.

Malraux: This trip to Yan'an taught me a great deal about the history of the Chinese revolution, far more than I knew before. Sitting here today beside the greatest revolutionary of the contemporary era, aside from Lenin, I feel deeply moved.

Chairman: You speak too highly.

Malraux: In Yan'an, I saw the harsh conditions of the past, with people living in cave dwellings. I also saw photographs of Chiang Kai-shek's residence. Comparing the two made it clear why the Chinese revolution succeeded.

Chairman: This is the law of historical development—the weak always overcome the strong.

Malraux: I think the same way. I too once led guerrilla forces, though the circumstances then could not compare with yours.

Chairman: I heard you fought in guerrilla warfare.

Malraux: I fought as a guerrilla in central France, leading a peasant army against the Germans.

Chairman: At the end of the 18th century, the French Revolution overthrew feudal rule. Those forces that overthrew feudalism were not strong at first either; they were weak.

Malraux: That's very interesting. Peasants had never fought battles before and didn't know how to fight, but they could become excellent soldiers. Napoleon had many such soldiers under his command. I believe that before Chairman Mao, no one had ever led a peasant revolution to victory. How did you inspire the peasants to be so brave?

Chairman: The answer is very simple. We ate the same food and wore the same clothes as the peasants, making the soldiers feel we were not a privileged class. We investigated class relations in the countryside, confiscated the land of the landlord class, and distributed it to the peasants.

Malraux: Does the Chairman consider land reform to be of primary importance?

Chairman: Land reform, democratic politics, and one more thing—we had to win battles. If you don't win battles, who will listen to you? Defeats are inevitable at times, but we tried to suffer fewer defeats and win more victories.

Malraux: Over more than two thousand years of history, peasants have been accustomed to losing battles; they haven't won many.

Chairman: We have won battles and also lost some. We even lost our entire southern base area and had to flee to the north.

Malraux: Despite that, the people's longing for the Red Army still endured.

Chairman: Later, we established many base areas in the north. We expanded the army, developed the Party, developed mass organizations, and the people in the north gained land. We liberated major cities like Beijing, Tianjin, and Jinan. Our forces gradually grew to several million and we fought from the north down to the south. There is one more piece of experience worth mentioning: in China, we must unite with the national bourgeoisie and bourgeois intellectuals—all those who do not follow the enemy. For a period, we even formed a united front with the big bourgeoisie, with Chiang Kai-shek. If Chiang Kai-shek had not attacked us, we would not have attacked him.

Malraux: Why did Chiang Kai-shek attack you?

Chairman: He wanted to swallow us up, and he believed he could.

Malraux: Did he think the Chinese Communist Party was very weak?

Chairman: We had many base areas, with a population accounting for one-fifth of the country, and an army of about one million. Chiang Kai-shek, on the other hand, had over four million troops and American aid. Our base areas were large but scattered, and we had no external assistance.

Malraux: Is there another reason, perhaps that Chiang Kai-shek only believed in the power of the cities?

Chairman: He had cities, foreign aid, and at the same time, his rural population was larger than ours.

Malraux: I once visited Russia and discussed this issue with Gorky. I spoke with him about Mao Zedong—at that time you were not yet Chairman. Gorky said the greatest difficulty for the Chinese Communist Party was the lack of big cities. At the time, I asked him whether having no big cities would lead to failure or success.

Chairman: Did Gorky answer you? (Malraux shakes his head.) He didn't know the conditions in China, so he couldn't answer you.

Malraux: Gorky often said that peasants everywhere are the same, but I believe every place has its own unique circumstances. Now, I have a question: China is once again striving to become a great China. Centuries ago, China was a technologically advanced power, like in silk production. Later, Europe became technologically advanced, with weapons and munitions. Now China also has weapons and munitions and is set to become a strong power again. Of course, China does not need to become a European-style power. China must become a Chinese-style power. I wonder what it requires.

Chairman: It takes time.

Malraux: We hope you have all the time you need.

Chairman: At least several decades. We also need friends—for example, interacting with you, establishing diplomatic relations, that is what friendly ties are about. We have all kinds of friends, and you are one kind. Also, the Chairman of the Indonesian Communist Party, Aidit, who is visiting Beijing, is our friend as well. We haven't met him yet. We have common ground with Aidit, and we also have common ground with you.

Malraux: These commonalities are different.

Chairman: One thing is the same, for instance, how to deal with American imperialism. As for Britain's double-dealing, you are clearer about it than the British themselves.

Malraux: In reality, only France opposes the American "escalation" in Vietnam.

Chen Yi: The British support American aggression in Vietnam, while you oppose it.

Malraux: Britain has the Malaysia issue.

Chairman: Britain and America want to trade off.

Malraux: Since President de Gaulle restored the regime, France has ended its colonialist stance. We give Algeria several billion francs in aid every day. It was I who personally went to the four African countries to announce their independence. In President de Gaulle's view, China and France have an absolute common ground: if there is a dual world hegemony by the Soviet Union and the United States, then China cannot become a true China, and France cannot become a true France.

Chairman: Of course. One is your ally, and one is our ally. Your ally is the United States, which harbors ill intentions toward you. Our ally is the Soviet Union, which also harbors ill intentions toward us.

Malraux: After Lenin died, when people talked about the Soviet Union, they would think of Stalin. After Stalin died... Stalin's system was overthrown, at least partially. But Soviet leaders falsely claimed that the Soviet system had not changed. Khrushchev personally told us this. I believe the system today is different; although the same words are used, the content is very different.

Chairman: He even went further and said they would establish communism, something Stalin never spoke of.

Malraux: I feel that Khrushchev and Kosygin make people think it is no longer the Soviet Union once idealized in the past.

Chairman: It represents the interests of a stratum, not the interests of the broad masses.

Malraux: They have even changed the methods of government administration.

Chairman: The Soviet Union wants to follow the path of capitalist restoration. On this point, the United States is very welcoming. Europe is also welcoming. We are not welcoming.

Malraux: Does the Chairman truly believe they want to return to the capitalist path?

Chairman: Yes.

Malraux: I think they are trying to move away from communism, but where are they heading? What are they seeking? Even they themselves are not clear in their thinking.

Chairman: They are using this muddled approach to confuse the masses. You have your own experience—does the French Socialist Party really pursue socialism? Does the French Communist Party truly believe in Marxism?

Malraux: Only seven percent of the French Socialist Party's members are workers; the rest are mainly clerks. In this respect, they are strong because they have trade unions composed of clerks. Additionally, some party members are vineyard owners from the south—landlords. As for the French Communist Party and French communists, that is another matter. The role of the French peasantry is different from that in China—not only in absolute numbers but also proportionally smaller than in China. For French communists to be effective, there are only two possibilities: either find strength among intellectuals or among the true proletariat. French communists may lean toward China emotionally, but because the specific conditions differ from China, they actually lean more toward the Soviet Union in practice.

Chairman: They oppose us.

Malraux: As a party, they oppose China, but workers, intellectuals, and peasants do not oppose China. Currently, internal party conflict is very serious. The French Communist Party, like the laziest people, tries to appease both sides. You may have already seen much of this.

Chen Yi: They haven't tried to appease us.

Chairman: Parties can change. Plekhanov and the Mensheviks were once Marxists, but later they opposed Lenin, opposed the Bolsheviks, and broke away from the people. Now changes have occurred within the Bolsheviks themselves. China also has two futures: one is to firmly follow the path of Marxism-Leninism, the other is to follow the path of revisionism. There are social strata in our country that want to take the revisionist path. The question is how we handle it. We have taken some measures to avoid following the revisionist path. But no one can guarantee what path will be taken after several decades.

Malraux: Is the revisionist stratum currently widespread in China?

Chairman: Quite widespread—not large in numbers but influential. These are former landlords, former rich peasants, former capitalists, intellectuals, journalists, writers, artists, and some of their children.

Malraux: Why are there writers?

Chairman: Some writers' thinking is anti-Marxist. We took over the old establishment as it was. Originally, we had no artists, journalists, writers, professors, or teachers—these people were left behind by the Kuomintang.

Peyre: I have a feeling that Chinese youth are being cultivated in the direction the Chairman advocates.

Chairman: How long have you been here?

Peyre: Fourteen months. I learned a great deal traveling from Guangzhou to Beijing. Later, I participated in a diplomatic mission trip, visiting central and southern China. I had the honor of visiting the Chairman's hometown of Shaoshan, and also went to Changsha, Sichuan, and most recently to the northeast. It was very interesting. In factories, communes, streets, and theaters, I tried as much as possible to interact with the people. I feel that young people do not have the conflicts that cause you concern.

Chairman: You have seen one aspect of the phenomenon, but not the other. A society is not a monolith; it is a complex entity, with two possibilities existing. Peyre: I feel there is a force guiding the youth, leading them in the direction you have pointed out. Contradictions will certainly remain, but the direction is set.

Chairman: There are bound to be contradictions.

Malraux: In the Chairman's view, what is the next objective in opposing revisionism? I mean on the domestic front.

Chairman: That is opposing revisionism—there is no other objective. We oppose corruption, theft, speculators, and all foundations of revisionism, not only outside the Party but within it as well.

Malraux: What is the next goal? For instance, when a Party congress is held, a goal must be set. Is it agriculture? Because I feel the industrial problem has been solved, or at least is on a sound path.

Chairman: Neither the industrial nor the agricultural problem has been solved.

Malraux: I visited a textile factory in Xi'an. In France, textile factories are closely tied to revolutions—in 1789, 1830, 1840, and 1851, especially in Lyon, because textile workers were the poorest. In Xi'an, I saw that the textile industry there has reached the level of pre-liberation Shanghai. Most of the machinery is made in China, with more machines and fewer workers. Clearly, the Chinese Party can implement the policies it wants in the textile industry. But on the other hand, in agriculture, the limited arable land makes the Chinese government's situation difficult. Are you considering launching a large-scale movement in agriculture that goes beyond the scope of the people's communes?

Chairman: There won't be changes in the organizational structure and production relations of the people's communes. Changes are beginning in technology.

Malraux: Do you think it's possible to increase the area of arable land?

Chairman: Some increase is possible, but the main thing is to raise the yield per unit area. There is much to be done on this front. Let's not go into more detail today. Please send my regards to your president.

Malraux: Regarding foreign policy issues, I have already discussed them with Premier Zhou and Vice Premier Chen, so I won't repeat them to the Chairman. What we discussed today are the fundamental issues of greatest concern to President de Gaulle. Thank you for this meeting, and I convey President de Gaulle's regards. (While leaving)

Chairman: I have met with French parliamentarians.

Malraux: I trust the words of parliamentarians the least.

Chairman: Their stance towards the United States is not as clear as yours.

Malraux: Perhaps it's because I bear greater responsibility.