Talk With Edgar Snow On International Issues


TALK WITH EDGAR SNOW ON
INTERNATIONAL ISSUES*
(January 9, 1965)
Edgar Snow (hereinafter referred to as Snow): I read the Chairman's
military writings before I came to see you. With reference to military experts
in southern Vietnam may I say the war in southern Vietnam has entered the
stage of mobile warfare, like the third revolutionary civil war in China?
Chairman Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): The third
revolutionary civil war which started in 1946 was the war of liberation for the
whole country. Chiang Kai-shek then had several million troops, and we, more
than one million. Up to this point the war in southern Vietnam has not
reached such a scale. You can give the U.S. government some advice. Why
should it act like this? Wherever it goes, there is war, and the people there
learn how to fight. Still it refuses to leave when it is told to do so. Take Ngo
Dinh Diem, for example. Both Ho Chi Minh and I felt that he was not
too bad—he ought to have been helped to stay on for a few years. However,
some U.S. generals detested, overthrew and killed him. Can there be peace
under heaven this way?
Snow: Of course, the Liberation Army of South Vietnam does not have
such strength in manpower as the Eighth Route Army or the subsequent
Liberation Army, but, likewise, the Saigon regime does not have so many
troops as Chiang Kai-shek.
Mao: No, not so many, and they don't know how to fight. They are even
inferior to Chiang Kai-shek.
Snow: Can one say that South Vietnam has sufficient strength by itself to
withstand external intervention and oppose local reactionaries?
Mao: I think it can. At least it has a more favorable situation than we
had during the second revolutionary civil war. We had no direct foreign
intervention at that time. Southern Vietnam's advantage is the presence of
* This is the main part of Mao Zedong's talk with Edgar Snow, an American writer
and a friend to China.
20,000 Americans, who will educate most of the people, including the soldiers
and some officers in the army. People opposed to the American troops are not
all Liberation Army, just as Ngo Dinh Diem didn't approve of them. Some
people in the government army do not either.
Snow: It is very obvious.
Mao: They have bitter quarrels.
Snow: Is it possible to persuade some of the southern Vietnamese troops
to join the Vietnamese Communists?
Mao: I think it's possible just like Fu Zuoyi and Tao Zhiyue of
Xinjiang, Cheng Qian and Chen Mingren of Hunan.
Snow: Great changes have taken place in the international situation since
I last visited China. Africa is awakening. Under such circumstances can I say
the current principal contradiction is the contradiction between imperialism
and the newly emerging forces in Asia, Africa and Latin America? Is this
contradiction more important than that existing among imperialist countries?
Mao: What's your view? I am not very clear about that. Unlike you, I
have not visited many places. What do you think? I want you to be my teacher
and inform me about the international situation.
Snow: I believe you can answer this question. I'm unable to do so, or I
must wait to read your next book. I can see from your writings that you have
paid special attention to these events. From these can one conclude that the
contradiction between imperialism and the newly emerging forces in Asia,
Africa and Latin America is the principal one?
Mao: I think the U.S. President has also said so. The former President on
many occasions mentioned that there were relatively few troubles in the United
States, Canada and Western Europe, and it was the Southern Hemisphere that
was beset with serious troubles. Kennedy talked about this question many
times. The special war and the local war he proposed were to deal with this
situation. Some sources said he also read my writings on military affairs. It
may be true. When the Algerian issue was still without a settlement, some
Algerians asked me what to do when not only they were using the theory in
my writings but the French were doing the same. It was Ferhat Abbas, the then
prime minister, who made these remarks; he had visited China. I replied;
"How can you make use of my theory? I wrote on the basis of China's
experiences, so my theory is suitable only for a people's war, not a war against
the people. Chiang Kai-shek also studied our materials, many of which he
acquired in the course of the war, but this by no means retrieved his defeat.
Likewise, the French were unable to save themselves from failure just by
reading my writings."
Now we are also studying U.S. military writings. Maxwell Davenport
Taylor, the U.S. ambassador to southern Vietnam and ex-chairman of the Joint
Chiefs of Staff, wrote the book The Uncertain Trumpet, from which it seems
that he did not quite approve of nuclear weapons. He said nuclear weapons
had not been used in the Korean War or in the Chinese War of Liberation.
So he doubted whether one could win a war in future by relying on these
weapons. He stressed manpower and funds for the army, but also the
production of nuclear weapons, letting the two develop in parallel. He said an
army was imperative and the U.S. must maintain 800,000 to 900,000 troops.
While the army insists on manpower, the air force asks for more aircraft and
nuclear weapons, and the navy maintains its own stand. Since Taylor represents the army, he was contending for the army's top priority. Now he has
the opportunity to experiment in South Vietnam. He went to South Vietnam
last time and it has been less than a year, not as long as his stay in Korea. He
will get his experience. I have read the rules and regulations for the U.S. troops
to deal with guerrilla warfare in South Vietnam, and they simply enumerate a
number of advantages and disadvantages of guerrilla war and conclude that it
is possible to wipe out the guerrilla forces in South Vietnam.
Snow: The Americans are politically weak, not militarily.
Mao: That could be. The government of South Vietnam is unpopular.
Both the Ngo Dinh Diem regime and the present one are divorced from the
masses. It will come to no good end to assist such unpopular governments. The
Americans refused to listen to not only my advice, but yours as well.
Snow: They didn't listen to me in the past, that's why they have suffered
so many defeats. We can see clearly now that the military and economic gaps
between Asia, Africa and Latin America on one side and the developed
countries on the other have become increasingly wider, and, meanwhile, what
neocolonialism has done makes the gaps even wider. Isn't this the principal
contradiction? Is it not only to resist the U.S. but to adapt to this principal
contradiction that France changes its policy?
Mao: I have talked with the French. I asked the French National Assembly
Delegation if the Third World included France. They said no. Now one side
consists of developed countries; the other side, undeveloped countries. The
so-called developed countries were not so unanimous; they have never been so.
For instance, two world wars took place among the developed United Kingdom, France, Germany, Italy and Japan. Weren't the developed countries
fighting one another? Their aim was to contend for the so-called undeveloped
countries. Why did they want to fight? Could they not sleep or eat? You
haven't taken part in that war; your former President participated in the
Second World War, and so did the incumbent President.
Snow: I was in Russia as a war correspondent then.
Mao: How long did you stay there?
Snow: Two and a half years. I was in the United Kingdom and France
after the war. I never killed anybody, but I was almost killed on several
occasions.
Mao: How dangerous! But you still went to the front?
Snow: A war correspondent is an accessory of war. I didn't go to the front
in Russia, but I went to the front in Germany and France. I visited Stalingrad
when it was under German attack.
Mao: Before or after the attack?
Snow: At the time of the surrender of Hitler's troops.
Mao: Hitler was then really terrific, having occupied almost the whole of
Europe, excepting east of the Moscow-Leningrad-Stalingrad front. And not
counting United Kingdom. He occupied North Africa as well. However, he
blundered: If after the Dunkirk evacuation his troops had immediately
followed into the United Kingdom, the latter would have been at the end of
its tether. A British prime minister told Premier Zhou Enlai in Geneva that
the United Kingdom had no more troops at all then, and it was vulnerable
everywhere. However, the Germans hesitated to drive forward just because of
the English Channel.
Snow: Hitler was impatient to attack Russia at that time. Is there any hope
for improvement in Sino-U.S. relations?
Mao: I think there is, but it needs time. Probably it will not be realized
during my lifetime, as God will summon me before long. Perhaps you will be
able to witness it. According to dialectics, life is limited after all.
Snow: You look very healthy, Chairman.
Mao: I have prepared many times, but always failed to meet death. What
could I do? On many occasions death seemed to be at my elbow, including
the dangers during war that you have mentioned. Once, a guard, who was at
my side, was killed by a bomb, and his blood splashed on me. However, the
bomb just didn't hit me.
Snow: This happened when you were in Yan'an?
Mao: A lot of times. Once was on the Long March. After crossing the
Dadu River, we were bombed by aircraft and the chief of my guards was killed,
but the blood didn't splash on me that time.
You know that I was a teacher in an elementary school before. I never
thought of fighting a battle or of organizing the Communist Party. I was then
a democrat, almost like you. Later on, I didn't know why, I was engaged in
the work of the Communist Party. In short, this was independent of our will.
China was oppressed by imperialism, feudalism and bureaucratic capitalism;
and there was also the oppression of warlords at one time. This is a fact.
Snow: The objective conditions made revolution inevitable. Such conditions no longer exist. What will the next generation do, since conditions in
China have changed?
Mao: I don't know either. That's the business of the next generation. No
one knows what they will do. However, there are a couple of possibilities: One
is to carry on the revolution; the other is to negate the revolution, do evil
deeds, make peace with imperialism, allow Chiang Kai-shek to return to the
mainland, and side with a handful of domestic counterrevolutionaries. This is
called counterrevolution. You ask my opinion; certainly I don't wish to see
the emergence of a counterrevolution. What will happen will be decided by
future generations. Taking a long view, future generations will be wiser than
we, just as people of the capitalist period are wiser and better than those of
the feudal period. Feudalism didn't exist in the United States, but it existed in
Europe.
Snow: It can't be said that the U.S. was entirely free of feudalism. One
cause of the Civil War was anti-feudalism.
Mao: It was a contention of labor forces; the so-called liberation of Negro
slaves in fact meant opening the labor market.
Snow: Although the period of feudal domination in the south was not
long, the feudal ideology was quite deep-rooted in the U.S.
Mao: The south is now relatively more backward than the north.
Snow: Do you still think that the atomic bomb is a paper tiger?
Mao: I was just using a figure of speech. It will kill people if it is used.
However, it will be eliminated finally, and then it will turn into a paper tiger,
because it is no more!
Snow: You must have heard someone say, "Chairman Mao maintains that
in case of nuclear war, the people of many countries will be completely wiped
out, but China will still have several hundred million people left."
Mao: What do you think?
Snow: In effect you have indirectly replied to the question. It was also
mentioned in an article about polemics between China and the Soviet Union.
Mao: I've forgotten the reply.
Snow: I'm afraid I've forgotten too, but in my memory it was referred to
in an article as a lie, an assertion planted on you.
Mao: What did it say?
Snow: It said in case of nuclear war, China would still have several
hundred million people left. A Yugoslav citizen alleged you told him this when
he visited China in the latter half of the fifties.
Mao: I don't remember it, but perhaps I said so. I remember saying only
this: "We don't want war. We have no atomic bomb. If some other country
plans to launch a nuclear war, the whole world may suffer disaster. A disaster
will cause casualties. How many casualties? Nobody knows. There must be
some. I didn't mean China alone. I didn't believe the atomic bomb could
destroy all mankind. If all were destroyed, there would be no government to
make peace with. This was mentioned in one of the conversations I had with
Nehru in Beijing. He told me that he was the director of the Atomic Energy
Commission of India and he knew the destructive power of the atomic bomb.
I said it might not be so serious as he asserted, that no government would exist
to make peace with after a nuclear war. If one government falls, another
government will rise to succeed it. Somebody invariably rises. I didn't say the
whole world would perish. I heard that there is a U.S. film called On the Beach.
Snow: It is a fictitious novel, describing the destruction of all mankind.
Mao: How awful! Khrushchev has said there is a kind of bomb,
something to do with lasers, in his grasp that could destroy all mankind, all
animals and plants. Later he repeatedly denied saying this. I never deny what
I have said. Please do not deny this alleged rumor on my behalf.
Snow: I also mentioned in my book that you might have said that, aiming
to find out the response of the other party.
Mao: This was because a politician of a big power asserted there would be
no government then. I was refuting his assertion.
Snow: So it was referred to for the first time under such circumstances?
Mao: Yes, it was in October 1954. The Americans said something about
the formidable destructive power of the atomic bomb, and Khrushchev echoed
with an arrogant air. They have all surpassed me. I am lagging behind them.
Am I right? Rather backward. I read the recent reports on the visit of a number
of U.S. experts to Bikini Island. After landing, they found that rats were
running here and there as usual, fish were swimming in the lake, the water
from the well was still drinkable, plants were flourishing and birds abundant.
They had to chop down trees to open a way into the islands. This island
underwent experiments with nuclear explosions for 12 years, and the experts
visited it after six more years. I think creatures had a hard time there within
the first one or two years after the explosions, then began to propagate again.
Why were the rats not affected at all? Because they hid themselves in holes
underground. Why are the plants still so abundant? I judge a lot must have
perished, whereas the survivors again started to grow, then flourished after a
few years.
Snow: I have seen a film about how all creatures were destroyed not long
after the explosion of a hydrogen bomb. Sea turtles came ashore to lay eggs,
which failed to breed baby turtles.
Mao: They might be able to breed after some years, but I don't know
whether it would be the same for human beings.
Snow: Beetles have the strongest vitality.
Mao: In short, the atomic bomb was only a paper tiger so far as the birds,
trees and sea turtles in that place were concerned. Perhaps human beings are
a bit weaker than they.
Snow: Human beings are more likely to suffer from toxins made by
themselves. The ants consider they rule the world; they are the masters of the
world.
Mao: In the eyes of the ants, all men are mere trifles. Ants are relatively
big animals. Germs do what men fail to do. The world's total population is
only some three billion. A pedologist told me that each mu of land contains
400 kilograms of germs. There would be no soil or plant growth without germs.
Therefore, don't despise them just because they are so small; they can enter
the body of every man, whether he's a president or a journalist. They are very
formidable.
Snow: Germs can't be seen at all.
Mao: A man can't live apart from germs. There are innumerable kinds of
germs in the human body, and according to medical science, germs such as
the colon bacillus and fungi in the mouth cavity are extremely beneficial to
human beings. We have identical views on this question. The investigation by
U.S. experts on Bikini Island is good data. We have published the data and
distributed them to the deputies to the National People's Congress for their
reading.
Snow: Is this an open report?
Mao: No, it was written by a Chinese, citing the data of the U.S. experts,
and published in News World in Hong Kong.
Snow: Nevertheless, you don't think nuclear war to be a good thing?
Mao: Right. Better not launch nuclear war at all. Use conventional
weapons if you want to wage war.
Snow: It seems that the Asian, African and Latin American regions have
become more and more modernized, and revolutions there are developing more
and more vigorously.
Mao: Possibly.
Snow: Can revolutions in Asian, African and Latin American countries

achieve complete success without a third world war breaking out?
Mao: It is hard to say. Maybe it requires a relatively long period of time.
Snow: China has given its support to Indonesia's withdrawal from the
United Nations. Will this not set a precedent for other countries?
Mao: It is the United States which has set a precedent. In order to prevent
China from entering the U.N., it has proposed that China can only enter with
a two-thirds majority vote. Isn't China doing quite well without being in the
U.N.? Indonesia has withdrawn from the U.N. because it feels that it has not
benefited from participation in the organization.
Snow: Can I say China does not want to join the United Nations?
Mao: No. If two thirds of the U.N. members expect us to join that
organization, and we refuse to do so, won't they call us nationalistic? However,
we demand that the U.N. repeal its slander of China as an aggressor and at
the same time designate the U.S. an aggressor. Do you think this argument
will work? How could China join the U.N. in the capacity of an aggressor
country? The U.S. won't agree either if we call it an aggressor. Hence we don't
wish to join the U.N. at present, and likewise the U.S. is not willing we
participate, which might prove a hindrance. Both sides agree to a certain
extent on this point. Therefore, it is better to let Generalissimo Chiang
Kai-shek stay and represent China in the U.N. for the time being! Well, please
don't cover this part of our conversation, because we have not yet made it
public.
Snow: Would it be possible to have a U.N. without the U.S.?
Mao: The Afro-Asian Conference was held without the participation of
the U.S.
Snow: There is also the Games of the Newly Emerging Forces.
Mao: China is a big country and we have a lot of our own affairs to take
care of. We are rather busy. China itself is a U.N. Our U.N. has received you;
has that U.N. received you yet? When do you plan to leave China?
Snow: After a few days. When I return to the United States this time,
perhaps Johnson will let me see him. Have you any message for him?
Mao: No.
Snow: I can take him this word as well.
At present, China stresses maintaining a revolutionary spirit among the
young people. The important thing lies in setting an example for similar
countries and promoting revolution in other countries, so that the Chinese
revolution finds final security, doesn't it?
Mao: On the last point, it is difficult to say. What security do you think
there is? Aren't people now talking about disarmament? But in which year will
it actually be carried out? Aren't they talking about general and complete
disarmament? The Soviet Union talked about it in the past, and now the U.S.
is talking about it. We also agree with general disarmament. In fact, the present
situation is general and complete expansion of armament instead of disarmament, which is receiving only lip service.
Snow: The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is doing just that.
Owing to the proliferation of nuclear weapons, every country is crying for its
own atomic bomb.
Mao: Only China is prohibited from having one. We don't wish to
possess many atomic bombs. Why do we need many? A few will do, just for
scientific experiment.
Snow: You said before that in breaking down the local tyrants and evil
gentry in Jiangxi, they called Mr. Soviet a very bad fellow, while throughout
the course of the Chinese revolution, the West complained that Mr. Socialism
had made a lot of trouble. Now they put the blame on China's atomic bomb.
Mao: This shows that my reputation and that of the Chinese government
and the Chinese Communist Party are not good. Why should they oppose
China and launch an anti-Chinese tide? When we were still unprepared,
suddenly Kennedy was no more. When the Vietnamese people were likewise
in bewilderment, Ngo Dinh Diem was no more. Another example is Khrushchev's sudden ouster. God knows! It was done so thoroughly that all his books
and pictures were removed overnight.
Snow: Quite a number of European parties have criticized the Soviet party
for expelling Khrushchev by such means.
Mao: We don't have many Khrushchev pictures here, but Khrushchev's
books are in our bookstores as before. How can the world be without a
Khrushchev! His spirit will haunt us, and persons of his ilk will always exist.
Snow: Can we say the proportion of the faults and merits of the new
Soviet leadership is 30 percent to 70 percent, i.e., they are 70 percent correct?
Mao: You mean the present Soviet leadership? It's hard to say. Some
people say they are engaged in Khrushchevism without Khrushchev.
Snow: Has there been any improvement in Sino-Soviet relations since
Khrushchev fell out of power?
Mao: Perhaps a little, but not much. His fall caused us to lose an object
of criticism in our articles.
Snow: Some Russians say a personality cult exists in China.
Mao: I am afraid there is a bit. It is alleged that Stalin had a personality
cult, Khrushchev not in the least, and the Chinese have one. There is some
truth in this. Khrushchev was ousted most probably because he lacked a

personality cult.
Snow: I take my acquaintance with you, Chairman, as a great honor, and
it also brings me a lot of personal advantages. I hope I can impart your
thinking to other people. I sincerely feel that your achievements are great. Of
course, I don't mean that everything is ideal, but in brief, you have done many
great deeds. It is regrettable that China and the U.S., as well as the Chinese
people and the American people, are separated because of historical reasons.
Mao: The two countries will get close to each other through historical
reasons as well. We must wait; this will invariably come.
Snow: I don't think a major war will break out between China and the
Mao: Maybe you are right. U.S. troops may come to China and they may
not. They will find things not so easy if they come, and we won't let them
reap any benefit. Perhaps they won't come because of this. You can rest
assured, as I have said before, that we shall not attack the U.S.
Snow: Some Americans say the war in southern Vietnam will be extended
to the north.
Mao: Dean Rusk recently corrected his version, saying he never made
such remarks.
Snow: Certainly I don't think the American government will listen to me.
A U.S. Congressman called Frank Church suggested that a debate take place
on the U.S. policy of interference in the affairs of other countries. He is
Johnson's good friend. The rulers of the United States don't understand you,
and I'm afraid I myself don't understand you either.
Mao: How so? We shall not make war beyond China, and we shall fight
in defense only if the U.S. comes and attacks us. History will be our witness.
Why should we go out to attack other people while we are so much occupied
with our own affairs? That would be committing a crime. South Vietnam
doesn't require our presence there at all. They are able to handle the situation
themselves.
Snow: The Americans fighting the war in South Vietnam say China will
occupy all of Southeast Asia if they withdraw from South Vietnam.
Mao: How occupy? By our troops or by the local people? The Chinese
had better occupy China.
Snow: Are there Chinese troops in South Vietnam?
Mao: No.
Snow: Rusk said the U.S. will withdraw from South Vietnam if China and
North Vietnam abandon their aggressive policy.
Mao: We have no aggressive policy to abandon. We haven't committed
any aggression. But we do support revolutions; we have to. "We shall issue
statements and hold meetings to express our support wherever there is
revolution. Imperialism dislikes this. We are fond of prattle and empty talk,
but send no troops. Can this be called aggression, whereas sending troops is
not aggression?
Snow: Formerly people said China was supported by Russia, and now they
say South Vietnam is supported by China.
Mao: The victory of the Chinese civil war chiefly relied on U.S. weapons,
which proved we had no official support from foreign countries. In fact, South
Vietnam obtained their arms from the U.S. In addition, they have often
captured soldiers of the South Vietnamese puppet regime to replenish their
manpower since last year. It is like us in the past—one source of our manpower
was Chiang Kai-shek's troops. They were forced to be soldiers and had
undergone some training, so once they were captured, they joined our troops
in fighting.
Snow: Why?
Mao: Because they were pressganged by the Kuomintang, and they hated
the Kuomintang.
Snow: There is one more point: The Chinese Communist Party and
people throughout the country are in accord.
Mao: It was under the pressgang of the Kuomintang that poor peasants
became soldiers. Our method was to call meetings for them to pour out their
grievances and hold memorial ceremonies for the souls of the dead. If a person
was murdered by the Kuomintang, his name would be written on a piece of
paper as a memorial to his soul. After settling matters this way, they would
join our troops right away and change caps. "Why did they wear our caps?
Simply because they were afraid of being mistaken for Kuomintang soldiers
if they were killed. With this cap on their head, they would be identified as
our men.
Snow: To a great extent, South Vietnam is now in such circumstances.
Mao: There must be revolution wherever there is oppression. The course
of socialist revolution is just like this. "When capitalism developed to a certain
stage, the bourgeoisie rose against feudalism. The feudal system didn't exist in
the U.S., but there was colonialism—Great Britain. As soon as U.S. capitalism
developed to a certain stage, it rose against Britain. For people the world over,
who will rise to revolution without being subjected to oppression? The
American War of Independence was caused by British oppression. Is it
almost 200 years since the American War of Independence?
Snow: The slogan put forward by many revolutionaries during the War

of Independence was the same as that raised during the French Revolution
later on. The U.S. was the only republic in the world then. The view of the
U.S. of the European countries at that time is identical with the U.S. view of
China today.
Mao: Washington had a bad reputation, so we can posthumously admit
him to the Party.
Snow: The Chinese Communist Party would consider him a reactionary,
therefore wouldn't let him join it.
Mao: Being unable to join the Communist Party is a fact, because there
wasn't any Communist Party at that time. Still we must acknowledge the
revolutionary role played by Washington. He played an advanced role, very
progressive, and Abraham Lincoln as well.
Snow: Lincoln was a self-contradictory man and, in the meantime, a great
man. He was a humanist. Before I leave China, may I ask you, Chairman, to
say a few words to the American people who entertain good feelings toward
China?
Mao: I wish them progress. If I wished them liberation, perhaps some
people wouldn't agree. I just wish liberation to those who are themselves aware
that they have not yet been liberated and have difficulties making a living.
Snow: Your remarks are excellent, Chairman, particularly with reference
to what you said before, i.e., China will not go out to attack other people,
and China is occupied with its own affairs. I myself have seen this point.
Mao: Whether the Americans need reliberation or not is their own
business. They are to be liberated not from British domination, but from the
domination of monopoly capital.
Snow: Won't you make some suggestions for the U.S. President?
Mao: It is difficult. The hands of Americans have stretched out to the
whole world. We advised them a long time ago to restrain a little. As a rule,
they refuse to listen.
Snow: Almost half the U.S. troops are stationed abroad. It seems that a
number of U.S. troops in foreign countries have become hostages of the local
people.
Mao: This puts the U.S. government into a dilemma: It is embarrassed
to quit and likewise embarrassed not to quit. To withdraw is difficult, and
refusing to withdraw is also difficult. They will send troops wherever there is
any rustle of leaves in the wind, thus they have to be transferred here and
there. Sometimes we raised a hue and cry on purpose—for instance, bombarding Jinmen with a few shells. The U.S. felt the Seventh Fleet was not strong
enough, just because of these few shells, and hastened to shift part of the Sixth
Fleet, in addition to some naval forces from San Francisco. Then we stopped
our shelling, and the American troops had to go back, as they had nothing to
do after coming here. Therefore, the American troops are subject to transfer
at our mere beckoning, a bit like Chiang Kai-shek's troops.
Snow: They have to have something to do, at any rate.
Mao: They won't remain idle. U.S. monopoly capitalists just want to go
somewhere to help the reactionaries. They have to help and they have to quit
in the end, like the way they helped Chiang Kai-shek. American troops were
stationed in Shanghai, Qingdao, Tianjin, Tangshan and Beijing in the past,
but they all left subsequently in a hurry. They lost no time leaving when they
were still a great distance from our troops. Britain was rather foolish then; it
sent warships to Nanjing to transport its soldiers, which were hit by us. The
crux of the matter was that there was in China such a disappointing fellow as
Chiang Kai-shek, who always suffered defeat, and in the meantime there was
the formidable Liberation Army. If it hadn't been for these conditions, the
Americans would have stayed.
Snow: Do you mean that the Americans will withdraw from South
Vietnam only under identical circumstances?
Mao: The American troops will not leave South Vietnam now, they may
continue to fight for another one or two years. But if they find the war insipid
and get tired of it, perhaps they will leave.
Snow: If I didn't misunderstand Premier Zhou Enlai's words, I remember
that he told me it would be impossible to settle the issue of South Vietnam
through negotiations before the withdrawal of the American troops. Is that
right?
Mao: I don't know what Premier Zhou said. I am afraid we have to be
prepared for two possibilities. We can negotiate either before or after withdrawal. Or no negotiations at all; let South Vietnam expel the American troops.
They may hang on there even after negotiations, as in Korea. We had such
experience in Geneva. After the Geneva Conference the U.S. sent troops to
replace the French in South Vietnam. To be honest, the presence of U.S.
troops in South Vietnam is a good thing; it will temper the people and
strengthen the liberation army. To have just a Ngo Dinh Diem won't do, just
as to have only a Chiang Kai-shek wouldn't do in China; not until the greater
part of China was occupied by Japan and, moreover, the occupation lasted
eight years, could the Chinese people be tempered.
(From the verbatim record)