**Conversation with Snow**

Mao: Not that many, and they don't know how to fight either, even worse than Jiang Jieshi.

Snow: Is it possible to believe that South Vietnam has enough strength to independently overcome foreign interference and opposition from local reactionaries?

Mao: I think it is possible, at least better than the conditions during our Second Revolutionary Civil War. We didn't have direct foreign interference during our Second Revolutionary Civil War. The good thing about South Vietnam now is that there are 20,000 Americans there, which can educate most of the people and soldiers in the army, as well as some officers. Those who are now opposing the American troops are not all the Liberation Army. Wu Tingyan also doesn't approve of the United States, and some people in the current government's army also don't approve of the United States.

Snow: Very clear.

Mao: They are arguing fiercely.

Snow: Is it possible for some of the South Vietnamese army to join the Viet Cong?

Mao: Yes, like Fu Zuoyi, like Tao Zhiyue in Xinjiang, and like Cheng Qian and Chen Mingren in Hunan.

Snow: Since my last visit to China, the international situation has changed greatly, and Africa has awakened. In this situation, can it be said that the main contradiction at present is the contradiction between imperialism and the emerging forces of Asia, Africa, and Latin America? Is this contradiction more important than the contradictions between imperialists?

Mao: What do you say? I'm not very clear, I haven't been traveling around. You travel around, what do you think? I want to hire you as a teacher to talk about the international situation.

Snow: I believe the Chairman can answer, I can't answer, or I can only wait for the Chairman's next book. From the Chairman's works, it can be seen that the Chairman attaches particular importance to those events. From this, can it be considered that the contradiction between imperialism and the emerging forces of Asia, Africa, and Latin America is the main contradiction?

Mao: I think the American president also said the same thing. The previous president said many times that the United States, Canada, and Western Europe have fewer problems, and the serious problems are in the southern hemisphere of the earth. Kennedy spoke about this issue many times. He proposed special warfare and local wars to deal with this. There are rumors that he also reads my military articles, which may be true. When the Algerian problem could not be resolved, the Algerians asked me, they use my works, and the French also use them, what should they do? The person who said this was the then Prime Minister Abbas, who visited China. I said, how do you use them? The books I wrote based on China's experience can only be applied to people's wars, not to wars against the people. Jiang Jieshi also studied our materials, and many of our materials were obtained by Jiang Jieshi during the war, but they could not save his defeat. The French also did not save their defeat by reading my books. Now we also study American military works. The American ambassador to South Vietnam, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Taylor, wrote a book called "The Uncertain Trumpet." From the meaning of his book, he doesn't quite approve of nuclear weapons. He said that they were not used in the Korean War, nor were they used in the Chinese Liberation War. He doubts whether future wars can be won with this kind of thing. He wants to fight for the number of soldiers and expenses for the army, but at the same time he says that nuclear weapons should also be built, and the two should develop in parallel. He said that the army is needed and that 800,000 to 900,000 people should be maintained. The army wants to insist on the number of soldiers, the air force wants to develop more planes and more nuclear weapons, and the navy has its own ideas. He represents the army and wants to fight for the army's priority. Now he also has the opportunity to experiment in South Vietnam. He went to South Vietnam last June, less than a year ago, not as long as he stayed in Korea. He will gain experience. I have already seen the American army's regulations on how to deal with the South Vietnamese guerrilla war, which is nothing more than talking about the many strengths and many weaknesses of the South Vietnamese guerrilla war, and then saying that there is hope of eliminating the guerrillas.

Snow: The weakness of the Americans is not military, but political.

Mao: Maybe. It's just that the South Vietnamese government is unpopular, whether it's the Wu Tingyan government or the current government, they are divorced from the masses. Helping this kind of unpopular government will not have good results. Not only do they not listen to what I say, they also don't listen to what you say.

Snow: They didn't listen to me in the past, so I think they had so many failures. Now it can be seen that the gap between Asia, Africa, and Latin America and developed countries in terms of military and economy is getting bigger and bigger. At the same time, the actions of neo-colonialism are making the gap even bigger. Is this the main contradiction? So France's policy has changed, is it not only to resist the United States, but also to adapt to this main contradiction?

Mao: I have also spoken to the French. When talking with the French parliamentary delegation, I asked them whether the Third World includes France, and they said it does not. Now developed countries are on one side, and underdeveloped countries are on the other side. The so-called developed countries are not so consistent, and have never been consistent. For example, developed countries such as Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and Japan have had two world wars. Isn't this developed countries fighting developed countries? The purpose is to fight for the so-called underdeveloped countries. Why do they fight, are they unable to sleep or eat? You didn't participate in this war, your previous president participated in World War II, and the current president also participated.

Snow: At that time, I was a war correspondent in Russia.

Mao: How long did you stay?

Snow: Two and a half years. After the war, I stayed in Britain and France. I have never killed anyone, but I have almost been killed several times.

Mao: So dangerous! Did you also go to the front line?

Snow: War correspondents are appendages of war. I didn't go to the front line in Russia, but I went to the front line in Germany and France. I went to Stalingrad when they were fighting Stalingrad.

Mao: Before or after the battle?

Snow: I went when Hitler's army surrendered.

Mao: At that time, Hitler was amazing, almost occupying the whole of Europe. Except for the line east of Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad, almost the whole of Europe was occupied by him, but Britain was not included. He also occupied North Africa. Hitler made a mistake. If his army had followed in after Dunkirk, Britain would have had no way to resist. This was told to our Premier Zhou Enlai by a British Prime Minister in Geneva. At that time, Britain had no soldiers at all, and there were no defenses anywhere, but because of the English Channel, Germany did not dare to cross.

Snow: Hitler was eager to attack Russia. Is there any hope for the improvement of Sino-US relations?

Mao: I think there is hope, but it takes time. Maybe I won't have hope in my lifetime, I'm about to see God, maybe you will have hope. According to dialectics, life is always limited.

Snow: I think the Chairman is very healthy.

Mao: I have prepared many times, but I just don't die, what can I do! Many times it seemed like I was about to die, including the dangers in the war you mentioned, my guards were bombed to death beside me, and blood splattered on me, but the bomb just didn't hit me.

Snow: In Yan'an?

Mao: Many times. There was also one time on the Long March, after crossing the Dadu River, we encountered a plane bombing, and my chief guard was bombed to death. This time, blood didn't splatter on me.

I used to be an elementary school teacher, as you know. Not only did I not think about fighting, but I also didn't think about engaging in communism, similar to you, a democrat. Later, I don't know why I started engaging in communism. In short, this is not transferred by the will of us people. China is oppressed by imperialism, feudalism, and bureaucratic capitalism, and at the beginning there was also the oppression of warlords, this is a fact.

Snow: Objective conditions made revolution inevitable, but now there are no such conditions. Now the conditions in China are different, what will the next generation be like?

Mao: I don't know either, that's a matter for the next generation. Who knows what the next generation will do, there are only a few possibilities: one is to continue to develop the revolution; the other is to deny the revolution, do bad things, make peace with imperialism, bring Jiang Jieshi to the mainland, and stand with a few percent of the counter-revolutionaries in the country, this is called counter-revolution. You ask for my opinion, of course I don't want counter-revolution to appear. The future is decided by the people of the future. In the long run, the people of the future will be smarter than us, just like the people of the capitalist era are smarter and better than the people of the feudal era. The United States does not have feudalism, but Europe does.

Snow: The United States cannot be said to have no feudalism at all, one of the reasons for the Civil War was anti-feudalism.

Mao: It was to fight for labor, the so-called emancipation of slaves was to open up the labor market.

Snow: Although the Southern feudal lords in the United States did not rule for a long time, the influence of feudal ideology is very deep.

Mao: The South is still relatively backward.

Snow: Does the Chairman still think that the atomic bomb is a paper tiger?

Mao: I'm just talking about it, people will die if a real fight breaks out. But in the end it will be eliminated, and then it will become a paper tiger, because it's gone!

Snow: The Chairman will definitely hear someone say that the Chairman believes that if a nuclear war breaks out, the people of some other countries will all be eliminated, and China will still have hundreds of millions of people left.

Mao: What do you say?

Snow: It has actually been indirectly answered by the Chairman, and it has also been mentioned in China's articles of debate with the Soviet Union.

Mao: How was it answered, I also forgot.

Snow: I'm afraid I also forgot, but I remember that one article said that this is a lie, and these words were forcibly added to the Chairman.

Mao: How was it said?

Snow: It was said that if a nuclear war breaks out, China will still have hundreds of millions of people left. This was said by the Chairman to a Yugoslavian when he visited China in the second half of the 1950s.

Mao: I can't remember, I may have said it. I remember saying that we don't want to fight, we don't have atomic bombs, if other countries want to fight, the whole world may suffer. Suffering is nothing more than people dying, how many will die, no one knows, some will always die. I'm not just talking about China. I don't believe that atomic bombs can destroy all of humanity, destroy everything, and not find any government to negotiate peace with. This was mentioned in a conversation with Nehru in Beijing. He said that he was the director of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission and that he knew the power of atomic weapons. I said that it may not be as he said, that after a nuclear war, no government will be found to negotiate peace with. If this government falls, that government will rise again, and someone will always rise. I have not said that the whole world will be destroyed. I heard that you have a movie called "On the Beach."

Snow: That's a fictional novel, saying that all of humanity is destroyed.

Mao: How can this be! Khrushchev said that he had a bomb in his hand, some kind of death ray, which could wipe out all of humanity, animals, and plants, and then he said that he had never said it, denying it several times. I don't deny what I said, don't deny this so-called rumor for me.

Snow: My book also says that the Chairman may have said this, the purpose is to see how the other party reacts.

Mao: This is because a politician of a great power said that no government would be found at that time, and I refuted his opinion.

Snow: Was it first mentioned under such circumstances?

Mao: Yes. This was in October 1954. The Americans said that the destructive power of atomic bombs was serious, and Khrushchev also said it very impressively. They all surpassed me, and I was behind them. Is this the case? Quite behind. Recently, I saw reports saying that many American experts visited Bikini Island. After they landed, they saw rats still running around, fish still swimming in the lake, well water was still drinkable, plants were lush, and there were many birds. The experts had to clear the way and cut down trees when entering the island. This was after the island had experienced twelve years of nuclear weapons testing, and it was six years later when they went again. After the explosion, living things were unlucky for about one or two years, and then they grew again. Why were the rats not affected at all and not destroyed? Because they burrowed into the holes. Why are there so many plants and not affected? Probably many died, and a little was left and grew again, and after a few years it developed greatly again.

Snow: I saw a movie, shortly after a hydrogen bomb exploded, all living things died, and sea turtles ran to the shore to lay eggs, but no baby sea turtles were born.

Mao: They may be born again in a few years. Whether this is also the case for humans, I don't know.

Snow: Beetles have the strongest vitality.

Mao: In short, for the birds, trees, and sea turtles in that place, atomic bombs are just paper tigers. Humans may be a little more fragile than them.

Snow: People are more susceptible to the toxins they create themselves. Ants think they rule the world, they are the masters of the world.

Mao: What people look like to ants is insignificant. Ants are still relatively large animals. Bacteria are doing things that people cannot do. There are only so many people in the world, more than three billion. But according to soil scientists, every acre of land contains 400 kilograms of bacteria. Without bacteria, soil cannot be created, nor can plants grow. So don't look at it as so small, it can drill into anyone's body, whether you are a president or a journalist, it is very powerful.

Snow: Bacteria are completely invisible.

Mao: People cannot live without it. I don't know how many bacteria there are in the human body. Medical science says that there is E. coli, and there are fungi in the mouth. Without it, it is very unfavorable to people. We can have a consistent opinion on this issue. The American experts' investigation on Bikini Island is very good material, and we have printed this material and distributed it to the National People's Congress representatives to read.

Snow: Is this a public report?

Mao: No, it is a newsletter written by a Chinese person quoting the materials of American experts. That newsletter was published in the Hong Kong "News World."

Snow: Even so, the Chairman does not think that nuclear war is a good thing?

Mao: Right. Don't fight a nuclear war at all, fight with conventional weapons if you want to fight.

Snow: It seems that the Asia-Africa-Latin America region is becoming more and more modernized, and the revolution is developing more and more.

Mao: Maybe.

Snow: Can the revolutions in Asia, Africa, and Latin America be completed without a second world war?

Mao: It's hard to say if it can be completed, it may take a considerable amount of time.

Snow: Regarding Indonesia's withdrawal from the United Nations, China has expressed its support. Will this set a precedent for other countries to withdraw from the United Nations?

Mao: The United States set the precedent. The United States did not allow China to enter the United Nations, and proposed that a two-thirds majority vote was required to pass before it could enter. China did not enter the United Nations, isn't it also very good? Indonesia's withdrawal from the United Nations is also because it feels that there is no benefit to participating in the United Nations.

Snow: Can it be said that China does not want to enter the United Nations?

Mao: No. If two-thirds of the countries in the United Nations want us to enter, and we don't enter, wouldn't we be said to be nationalists? But we want the United Nations to revoke the slander that China is an aggressor, and at the same time point out that the United States is an aggressor, do you think this reason is okay? How can China, as an aggressor country, enter the United Nations? It will not agree to say that the United States is an aggressor. Now we don't want to go in yet, and the United States is also unwilling for us to go in. If we go in, the United States will feel hampered. On this point, both sides have a certain common ground. Now let Chairman Jiang stay in the United Nations to represent China! Don't report these words, we haven't announced them yet.

Snow: Is it possible to have a United Nations without the United States?

Mao: The Asian-African Conference did not have the United States participating.

Snow: There is also the Games of the New Emerging Forces.

Mao: China is very big, and it has many things to do and is very busy. China is also a "United Nations." Our "United Nations" is receiving you, that United Nations has not received you yet, right? When are you planning to leave China?

Snow: I'll leave in a few days. When I go back this time, Johnson may find someone to let me see him once. Do you have any message to send to him?

Mao: No.

Snow: I can also send this sentence to him. Some Western "Maoist" experts are debating with each other, and their views are different. I recently attended a meeting of "Beijing Problem Experts" in Geneva. One of the questions debated at the meeting was whether "On Contradiction" made a new contribution to Marxism-Leninism?

Mao: What kind of people are they? Publishers?

Snow: Mainly university professors, Russian and Chinese experts. One question raised in the debate was whether "On Contradiction" was really written in 1937, and whether it was written before the booklet "Dialectical Materialism."

Mao: It was written in 1937. At that time, everyone went to the front line to fight the Japanese.

Snow: Did you have time to do research work at that time?

Mao: At that time, the Anti-Japanese Military and Political University wanted me to talk about philosophy.

Snow: "On Contradiction" is part of the lecture?

Mao: That's right. They forced me to give lectures, and I had no choice. This is part of the written lecture notes. It took several weeks to collect some materials, mainly summarizing the experience of the Chinese revolution. I wrote every night and slept during the day. The lecture only lasted two hours. When I gave the lecture, I didn't allow them to read books or take notes. I talked about the main points of the lecture notes.

Snow: Was it a few years before writing the booklet "Dialectical Materialism"?

Mao: I don't remember writing such a booklet. In fact, "On Contradiction" is not as good as the article "On Practice." "On Practice" talks about the process of cognition, explaining where people's cognition comes from and where it goes.

Snow: These two articles were written at the same time, right?

Mao: Not long before and after.

Snow: Was it 1938 or 1939?

Mao: Not 1938, I was busy in 1938, it was 1937.

Snow: Now I can tell those professors what the Chairman himself said. Professors may still insist on their views when conducting academic debates. Has the Chairman read Hegel's articles?

Mao: I have read some, and also Feuerbach's. Haeckel wrote a book that contains quite rich material. He does not admit that he is a materialist, but he is actually a materialist.

Snow: When did you read it?

Mao: That was a long time ago, when I was fighting a guerrilla war.

Snow: While the Chairman was engaged in revolution, he provided jobs for many professors, and now many people may have become "Maoist" experts.

Mao: During the Warring States period in China, there was a person who wrote a book called "Lao Tzu," and later there were more than a hundred families who annotated "Lao Tzu." Now my things, and even the things of Marx, Engels, and Lenin, may seem ridiculous in a thousand years.

Snow: A thousand years is a very long time.

Mao: The next thousand years may change more than the past thousand years.

Snow: Profound technological revolution, conquering outer space. But I believe that the influence of the Chairman's works will far exceed our generation and the next generation.

Mao: You may be exaggerating, I myself don't believe it.

Snow: No one in Chinese history has experienced so many changes as the Chairman, from starting as a student, to participating in the revolution, to the completion of the revolution, and becoming a historian and philosopher.

Mao: I can't refute you, nor can I agree. It depends on how future generations, how decades later, will see it. In the eyes of some people, I am determined to be a bad person. Imperialism, revisionism, and reactionaries in various countries do not approve of me, including Jiang Jieshi who does not approve of me. He does not approve of me, and I do not approve of him either. This will lead to disputes, sometimes writing articles, sometimes using force.

Snow: Now China emphasizes maintaining the revolutionary spirit among young people. Is it important to set an example for similar countries, promote revolutions in other countries, so that the Chinese revolution can achieve final security?

Mao: Young people have not seen the exploitation of landlords and capitalists, nor have they fought wars, nor have they seen what imperialism is. Even the people who are now in their twenties were only about ten years old at that time, and they know nothing about the old society. Therefore, it is very necessary for their parents and old people to talk about the past, otherwise they will not know that past history. The last point you just mentioned is difficult to say. What security are you talking about? Isn't there talk about disarmament now? Which year will disarmament actually take place? Isn't there talk about universal and complete disarmament? The Soviet Union used to talk about it, and now the United States also talks about it, and we have also agreed to universal disarmament. In fact, now it is universal and complete arms expansion. They talk about universal disarmament, but in reality they are universally expanding arms.

Snow: That's how the North Atlantic Treaty Organization is, now it is divided into two, and two are divided into four, and every country wants to have its own atomic bomb.

Mao: They just don't allow China to have atomic bombs, and we don't want to have so many atomic bombs ourselves, what do we need so many for? It's good to have a little bit to do some scientific experiments.

Snow: The Chairman once said that when the local tyrants and evil gentry were overthrown in Jiangxi, they said that the Soviet Mr. was a very bad guy. And throughout the entire development of the Chinese revolution, the West has been saying that Socialist Mr. is creating a lot of trouble, and now it comes down to China's atomic bombs.

Mao: This proves that my "reputation" is not good, and the "reputation" of the Chinese government and the Chinese Party is not very good. Why do they oppose China and create an anti-China upsurge? We were still caught off guard, and suddenly Kennedy disappeared. The Vietnamese people were also caught off guard, and Wu Tingyan disappeared. Another caught off guard, Khrushchev stepped down, it's really God knows, and it was done so thoroughly, his books and photos were all taken away.

Snow: Many European parties criticized the Soviet Party for using this method to bring Khrushchev down.

Mao: There are not many photos of Khrushchev here, and Khrushchev's books are still available in bookstores. The world can still function without Khrushchev! Khrushchev's ghost is still there, there will always be people like him.

Snow: Can the current new leadership of the Soviet Communist Party be said to be 30% right and 70% right?

Mao: The current leadership of the Soviet Communist Party? It's hard to say, I won't say that. Outsiders say that they want to engage in Khrushchevism without Khrushchev.

Snow: After Khrushchev stepped down, has there been any improvement in Sino-Soviet relations?

Mao: Maybe a little, but not much, it made us lose an object to write articles criticizing.

Snow: In Russia, some people say that China has a personality cult.

Mao: I'm afraid there is a little. It is said that Stalin had it, Khrushchev had none at all, and the Chinese have it. This also makes some sense. Khrushchev fell because he had no personality cult.

Snow: I think it is a great honor to be able to know you, and it has also brought me many benefits personally. I also hope that I have conveyed your thoughts to others. I sincerely feel that your achievements are great, of course not everything is good, but in short, many great things have been done. I regret that due to historical reasons, China and the United States, the two peoples, have been separated.

Mao: Due to historical reasons, the two countries will get closer. We have to wait, there will always be such a day.

Snow: I don't think there will be a major war between China and the United States.

Mao: This may be right. The American army can come to China, or it can not come. There is not much to gain from coming, we will not let the American army get any benefits. Because of this, maybe they won't come. We will not attack the United States, I have already said this, you can rest assured.

Snow: The United States often says that the war in South Vietnam will be expanded to the North.

Mao: Recently Rusk corrected his statement, saying that he had not said such a thing.

Snow: Of course, I don't think the American government will listen to me. There is an American senator named Church, who is now proposing a major debate on the US policy of interfering in other countries. He is a good friend of Johnson. The American rulers do not understand the Chairman, and I myself am afraid I do not understand.

Mao: How do you not understand? We will not attack, we will only fight if the United States attacks. This is evidenced by history. Our country is too busy with its own affairs, it is a crime to attack, why should we attack? South Vietnam does not need us to go at all, they can deal with it themselves.

Snow: The Americans fighting the war in South Vietnam are saying that if the United States withdraws from South Vietnam, China will occupy the entire Southeast Asia.

Mao: How will they occupy it? Will our army go to occupy it, or will the local people go to occupy it? The Chinese will still occupy China.

Snow: Does China have troops in South Vietnam?

Mao: No.

Snow: Rusk said that if China and North Vietnam abandon their aggressive policies in Southeast Asia, the United States will withdraw from South Vietnam.

Mao: We have no aggressive policies to abandon, we have no aggression. But China supports the revolution, and it cannot not support it. Wherever a revolution occurs, we issue statements of support and hold large rallies to express solidarity. This is what imperialism hates. We like to talk empty words and fire empty cannons, but we don't send troops. Is firing empty cannons called aggression? Those who send troops are not called aggressors?

Snow: In the past, it was said that China was supported by Russia, and now it is said that South Vietnam is supported by China.

Mao: China's victory in the civil war was mainly due to American weapons, which proves that there is no positive support from foreign countries. In fact, South Vietnam obtains weapons from the United States. Since last year, they have not only been able to obtain weapons, but also replenish troops, and often capture South Vietnamese puppet troops. This is the same as in the past when one of our sources of troops was Jiang Jieshi's army. They were trained and forced to become soldiers. Once captured, they could join our army to fight.

Snow: Why?

Mao: They were conscripted by the Kuomintang to become soldiers, and they did not like the Kuomintang.

Snow: Also, the Chinese Communist Party and the people of the whole country are united.

Mao: Those who were conscripted by the Kuomintang to become soldiers were poor peasants. Our method is to spend a few days holding grievance meetings and memorial meetings. If someone's family has been killed by the Kuomintang, write the names of the dead on paper and hold a memorial service. After solving the problem in this way, they joined our army and put on a hat. Why do they have to wear our hats? Because they are afraid that after being killed, they will be mistaken for Kuomintang soldiers. They can be recognized as our people from the hat on their heads.

Snow: To a large extent, this is the situation in South Vietnam.

Mao: Where there is oppression, revolution is inevitable. This is how the socialist revolution is. The bourgeoisie also wants to oppose feudalism when capitalism develops to a certain extent. The United States does not have a feudal system, but it has colonialism - Britain. When American capitalism develops to a certain extent, it will oppose Britain. Who in the world would rise up in revolution if they were not oppressed? The American War of Independence occurred because it was oppressed by Britain. The American War of Independence was almost two hundred years ago, right?

Snow: There were many revolutionaries during the American War of Independence, and the slogans they put forward were the same as those put forward by the French Revolution later. At that time, the United States became the only republic in the world. At that time, European countries viewed the United States in the same way that the United States views China today.

Mao: Washington's "reputation" is not good, we can posthumously recognize him as a "Communist."

Snow: The Chinese Communist Party would see him as a reactionary person, so it would not let him join the Party.

Mao: Not being able to join the Communist Party is one thing, there was no Communist Party at that time. We should recognize the revolutionary role that Washington played, he played a very advanced role at that time, and he was very progressive. Lincoln is the same.

Snow: Lincoln was a contradictory person, but also a great person. He was a humanitarian. Before I leave, please say a few words to the American people, the American people have goodwill towards China.

Mao: I wish them progress. If I wish them liberation, some of them may not approve. I will wish those who realize that they have not yet been liberated and who have difficulties in life to be liberated.

Snow: The Chairman's words are very good, especially when linked to the previous words, that is, China will not attack, and China is busy with its own affairs. I myself have seen this.

Mao: Americans need to be liberated again, this is their own business. Not liberated from British rule, but liberated from the rule of monopoly capital.

Snow: Can the Chairman also give some advice to the American President?

Mao: It's not good to give advice. The Americans have stretched their hands all over the world, and we have long suggested that they take them back a little, but they usually don't listen.

Snow: Almost half of the American army is abroad. It seems that many American troops abroad have become hostages of the local people.

Mao: It's not good to leave, and it's not good not to leave, which puts the American government in a difficult situation. It's difficult for the United States to withdraw its troops, and it's also difficult not to withdraw. Whenever there is a slight disturbance, it will send troops, and it will transfer them back and forth. Sometimes we deliberately call out like this, for example, firing a few cannons at Jinmen, just because we fired those few cannons, it felt that the Seventh Fleet was not enough, so it opened up part of the Sixth Fleet, and also opened up part of the navy in San Francisco. We don't fire cannons anymore, the American army comes and has nothing to do, so it has to go back. So the American army can be mobilized, and it will do whatever it is told. It's a bit like Jiang Jieshi's army, it will do whatever it is told.

Snow: The American army always needs to have something to do.

Mao: There is something to do. American monopoly capital has to go to some places to help the reactionaries, it has to help, it must help, and in the end it must leave, just like helping Jiang Jieshi. In the past, there were American troops in Shanghai, Qingdao, Tianjin, Tangshan, and Beijing, but later they all left, and they left very quickly. Our army was still far away from them, and they hurried away. At that time, Britain was very stupid and sent warships to Nanjing to pick up soldiers, and we hit them. The problem is that China has such an unpromising Jiang Jieshi who always loses battles, and there is also a powerful Liberation Army. In places that do not have these conditions, the United States stays and does not leave.

Snow: The United States will only withdraw from South Vietnam under the same circumstances?

Mao: The American army in South Vietnam will not leave now, it may fight for another year or two, but the United States feels that it has no taste, and it is hard to say if it will leave.

Snow: If I have not misunderstood Premier Zhou Enlai's words, the Premier told me that it is impossible to solve the South Vietnam problem through a meeting before the American army withdraws. Is that so?

Mao: I don't know what the Premier said, I'm afraid both possibilities have to be said. We can talk before the troops withdraw, and we can talk after the troops withdraw. Or we don't talk at all, and South Vietnam drives the American army away. Even if we talk, the American army will not leave, like it did in Korea. We also talked in Geneva. After the Geneva Conference, the United States sent troops into South Vietnam to replace the French army. To be honest, it is a good thing for the American army to stay in South Vietnam, it trains the South Vietnamese people and strengthens the Liberation Army. It is not enough to have only one Wu Tingyan, just like it is not enough to have only one Jiang Jieshi in China, it is necessary for Japan to occupy most of China, and to occupy it for eight years, to train the Chinese people.

**Instructions on Xu Yinsheng's Speech on How to Play Ping Pong**

(January 12, 1965)

Comrade Xu Yinsheng's speech and Comrade He Long's comments should be printed and distributed to the comrades of the Central Work Conference for their perusal. And please reprint and distribute them after you return, to spread the propaganda widely. Comrades, the young generals have challenged our large group of old generals. Shouldn't we learn something from them? The entire speech is full of dialectical materialism, opposing idealism and any kind of metaphysics everywhere. I haven't seen such a good work for many years. He is talking about playing ball. What we should learn from him is theory, politics, economics, culture, and military affairs. If we don't learn from the young generals, we will be finished.

Mao Zedong
January 12, 1965