Chairman: In the Premier's report, you didn’t even dare to mention "catching up." I added for you "catch up and surpass." I also included a passage: "Sun Yat-sen said in 1905 that we could surpass." After this is delivered, it doesn’t need to be published in the newspapers. Modern history should also be studied. *The Complete Works of Sun Yat-sen* does not include articles by Wang Jingwei, Hu Hanmin, or Zhang Taiyan. You have to read *Xinmin Congbao*, you have to read Liang Qichao’s *Collected Works from the Ice-Drinker’s Studio*, and especially you must read Sun Yat-sen’s *Three Principles of the People*. *Three Principles of the People* has very little substance but a lot of padding. In his later years, Sun Yat-sen lacked knowledge. He was an orator, a demagogue, speaking with fervent passion, winning applause for himself. I heard his speeches and talked with him. He allowed no refutation and brooked no dissent. In reality, his words were mostly filler, with very little substance, and extremely undemocratic. I say he could have been a good emperor of sixty years ago—no democracy at all. When he entered a venue, the entire audience had to stand and call him "Mr. Sun." No democracy, and also no knowledge. His ignorance reached such a level: when explaining communism to the right wing, he drew a Taiji diagram, inside which he drew a small circle and wrote "Communism"; outside that, another circle labeled "Socialism"; and finally, outside that, a larger circle labeled "The Principle of People's Livelihood." He said socialism and communism are both encompassed within my Three Principles of the People. Commander-in-Chief, you are the one least impressed by him.

Premier: Sukarno also included socialism within his "Five Principles" when he spoke of them.

Chairman: There's a Mianyun Mountain in Hunan—do you know of it? At first, he said Sun Wen [Sun Yat-sen] had no learning, calling him "Sun the Big Cannon," and that he was not as learned as Huang Keqiang [Huang Xing], saying Mr. Huang was excellent because Huang was a *xiucai* [a holder of the lowest civil service degree] who could write calligraphy in the style of Su Dongpo. Later, when he went to Guangdong and met Sun Yat-sen, he came back completely transformed, exclaiming, "He's incredible—Mr. Sun!"

Is it not workable for Yu Qiuli to serve as vice chairman of the Planning Commission? Is he just a fierce general, a daring commander? The Ministry of Petroleum also has planning work! The point is to have him bring a new style of work there.

Premier: To break through a pool of stagnant water.

Chairman: Do you (pointing to He) approve? Some of our people never do summaries; they only manage trivial matters and ignore major issues. Today’s *People’s Daily* published four letters (note: referring to the four letters in the column "Where Does Correct Design Come From?" on page 2). Were they organized by Gu Mu?

××: No, it was Hu Jiwei and his colleagues.

Chairman: I read them all thoroughly. Who wrote the editorial note?

××: The editorial note was written by Hu Jiwei.

Chairman: It wasn't Gu Mu who wrote it? In the past, I never read *People’s Daily*, following Chiang Kai-shek’s method of not reading *Central Daily News*.

Now things are better. Items in *People’s Daily* about how cabbages grow are fewer; there are some discussions now. Let Hu Jiwei refer to *China Youth Daily* and the *PLA Daily*. They contain quite a few thoughtful pieces. Some kids only read *People’s Daily*. I say, you never read *China Youth Daily* or the *PLA Daily*.

(×× arrives.)

Chairman: You start the discussion; you take charge. If you don’t speak, we’ll adjourn.

××: We’ve had meetings for several days. A few comrades spoke and raised many issues. Questions were raised, and the basic viewpoints are consistent. Everyone has gone down to stay at fixed points—that’s a great development. Let’s discuss things!

Chairman: Discuss what contradictions there are.

××: By going down to stay at fixed points, everyone’s understanding has become aligned.

Chairman: The time was too short.

××: It’s still the initial stage, the first time. We haven’t yet seen mature experience in mobilizing the masses. We can’t yet see what the masses look like after being mobilized; we need to see that first.

Chairman: We need to mobilize the masses in provinces, counties, communes, brigades, and production teams, and for poor peasant associations to be established everywhere, before it’s workable.

××: I have some understanding of rural areas, but very little of urban ones. I’ve read more materials on the countryside. These days I’ve been diligently reading materials on urban factories, but it’s still only early-stage experience.

Chairman: The experience at the Baiyin Factory is relatively mature.

××: The Baiyin Factory has been at it for two years. I also read Gao Yangwen’s report this time. It seems further deepening is still needed. A summary document can be written later. In general, everyone’s point-staying is still the first round of early-stage experience, so many issues can’t yet be articulated clearly. With the experience of a second or third round, things will fall into place. Comparisons have to be made. Once you’ve understood the countryside somewhat, and then make comparisons, you’ll understand. Now the seriousness of rural problems is visible. Some units need two years; specific approaches vary. You’ll understand when it’s done again in the future. For a county, two years might work; for a large urban factory, I’m afraid it might also take two years.

Chairman: Two years, really! Stretch it a bit longer; three years is fine too. The main thing is to resolve the problems completely. It could also be shortened.

××: Xiangtan and Shandong are cases in point. Chen Zhengren suggests that the Luoyang Tractor Factory also needs two years, without rushing deadlines.

Chairman: Resolve the problems thoroughly.

××: Once people become skilled, it won’t need so much time. There’s a question: what is the principal contradiction in rural areas?

×× stated that a wealthy stratum and a privileged stratum have already formed in the countryside. He said the principal contradiction is between the broad masses of poor and lower-middle peasants and this wealthy, privileged stratum.
××× said it’s still the contradiction between the masses and the landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, bad elements, and corrupt officials allied together—is that it? (××: Yes.)

Chairman: The landlords and rich peasants are the backstage bosses. On stage are the "four-unclean" cadres, and these "four-unclean" cadres are the power-holders. If you only target landlords and rich peasants, the poor and lower-middle peasants still won’t agree. What’s urgent are the cadres. The landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, and bad elements don’t hold power now. They were struggled against before, so the masses don’t take much notice of them. It’s mainly these bad cadres lording over them; they’re desperately poor and can’t bear it. Those landlords and rich peasants already went through land distribution once; they’re discredited. As for the power-holders, they’ve never been dealt with or discredited. They wield power, the higher-ups listen to them, and they assign work points—and they’re Communist Party members.

××: This is the first round. Behind the power-holders there are landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, and bad elements, or perhaps infiltrated elements of the four categories. Some bad cadres aren’t very closely tied to landlords and rich peasants. Landing and rich peasant counter-revolutionaries and bad elements who infiltrated organizations—including those landlords or rich peasants overlooked in classification who became poor peasants and Party members—those are also power-holders; they don’t belong to the old landlord/rich-peasant category. Those landlords and rich peasants are discredited, but this group is different.

Chairman: As ××× mentioned about Huangzhong County—it was Ma Bufang’s chief of staff.

××: That’s also a minority in the Northwest.

Chairman: A minority in the Northwest, and a minority nationwide.

××: How to draw the lines needs further discussion and unified terminology. How to describe the principal contradiction?

Chairman: Still, talk about the power-holders. They want to record extra work points! "The Five Big Leaders," isn’t it? Aren’t your "Five Big Leaders" power-holders?

××: Tao × raised this question, and reactions have come from all sides. Some approve, others don’t. Within central Party organs, there are those who don’t approve—I’ve heard them. There are three kinds of people: landlords overlooked in classification, a newly emergent bourgeoisie, and the thoroughly rotten... In most cases, these people come from working-people backgrounds. They’re "four-unclean" in stance, economics, ideology, and organization. They collude with landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, and bad elements; some are manipulated by them. There are also cases where landlords overlooked in classification have seized power, and where already de-capped landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, and bad elements have taken power.

Chairman: Of the latter two types, which is more numerous?

××: Still, the overlooked landlords.

Chairman: Don’t fixate on what class or stratum; just focus on these power-holders, the Communist Party power-holders, and the "Five Big Leaders" who follow them. Regardless of whether you were once a member of the Kuomintang or the Communist Party, you are now a power-holder. Mobilizing the masses is precisely about rectifying our own Party.

××: Some production-team cadres are also corrupt.

Chairman: Most production-team cadres are not Party members. This is preposterous. In a brigade there are only a few, or a dozen, or twenty-odd Party members. Far too few Party members. They absolutely refuse to recruit. They’ve been entrenched for so long they’ve acquired a taste for it. The central issue is to rectify the Party; otherwise, it’s hopeless.

Premier: The same goes for government organs. Your Liu Xiufeng at the Ministry of Construction, your Li Weihan of the United Front Work Department, your Zhang Zhiyi of the Political Consultative Conference—aren’t they all Party members? They absolutely must be removed. We announced this among the democratic personages, and they were quite shaken.

Chairman: The Communist Party has prestige. No need to raise the term "stratum"—that would implicate too many people, frighten them, and offend too many. Just mention Party committees! The prefectural committee is a Party committee, the county committee is a Party committee, the commune is a Party committee, the brigade Party committee or branch committee—they’re all merely left, center, or right. I believe the right-wingers are a minority, the far-right only a fraction. The left is also a minority. The centrists hold the bulk; they must be won over. You need to split this group apart. As ××× said: exploit contradictions, win over the majority, oppose the minority, and defeat them one by one—combining pulling in with striking down, pulling within striking, striking within pulling. Develop progressive forces, win over middle-of-the-road forces, isolate die-hard forces. For many years we haven’t spoken of this set of concepts.

××: That’s the strategy of the united front.

Chairman: I think it’s still useful now. Inside the Party today, it’s all KMT-CPC cooperation too! There’s also a united front.

××: That’s how it is in reality, but don’t go outside and say it.

Chairman: There’s also a minority that have rotted completely. Some provincial committees have rotted completely too—wasn’t Anhui rotten? Wasn’t Qinghai rotten? Wasn’t Guizhou rotten? Wasn’t Gansu rotten? (Someone mentions Yunnan.) Yunnan is still only a matter of "individual cases" — not enough. In Henan, Wu Zhipu was very "left"!

××: Instead of "wealthy stratum," let’s call them new exploitative and oppressive elements, or just refer to embezzlers, thieves, speculators, and profiteers. If they coalesce into a single entity, they could also be called a clique.

Chairman: Drop "stratum"; just call them elements or cliques—that covers it. Study it among yourselves. "Elements" — well, elements also form gangs; there are gangs of elements!

××: Their contradiction with the broad masses: these minority elements oppress and exploit the majority. The oppressed are always the majority; they will always want revolution. Worldwide, oppressors are a minority; when oppression is severe, they become isolated. Confidence lies right here.

Chairman: The exploited, oppressed, and discontented are many; that’s why there must be revolution.

××: Several situations must be clearly distinguished. First, cases where landlords and rich peasants are out in front, which deserve to be overthrown. Second, landlords and rich peasants who were overlooked during classification—they are class enemies; these people never do good. Once the materials are clarified, dealing with them is relatively easy. Any past landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, or bad elements who infiltrated the Party should be handled according to the rules for the four categories. Third, former poor and lower-middle peasants who took part in the revolution during land reform, but were later co-opted by landlords and rich peasants, and now stand over the masses oppressing them. With these, we must wage serious struggle, with thorough restitution.

Chairman: The third part is the main one, the majority.

××: The number of overlooked landlords is considerable; it’s high in areas where land reform was conducted peacefully.

××: Landlords could change their class status after five years of labor, rich peasants after three. Some who had their caps removed later went bad again. This regulation no longer works; it has to be revised.

××: That’s easy to handle: put the caps back on.

××: When carrying out land reform, we proposed a policy of neutralizing the rich peasants.

Chairman: We made a mistake, underestimated things. At that time, to stabilize the middle peasants, we only eliminated the feudal-exploitation part of rich peasants. This time no reports have surfaced about encroaching on middle peasants’ interests. Once the poor and lower-middle peasants are mobilized, they will encroach on middle peasants. Were there middle peasants mistakenly classified as rich peasants? You in northwestern Shanxi did target middle peasants!

××: In northwestern Shanxi there was the error of investigating three generations back; confiscating grain was about surviving the famine.

××: One portion with caps [on their class status], another overlooked, and yet another—former poor and lower-middle peasants who now hold power and have turned bad. The original poor and lower-middle peasants (Chairman: and even middle peasants) can mostly be won over, raising their class consciousness. But you mustn’t confiscate their property—watches, bicycles, new houses; the masses would be dissatisfied. Restitution still has to be carried out.

Chairman: You’re talking about the third part.

××: Without restitution, it’s not conducive to educating cadres.

××: Confiscate it, to educate new cadres. Those who become unable to serve as cadres: the majority should be won over; a minority should have caps put on them. I’m afraid this policy must be settled.

Chairman: For the minority of egregious cases, they should bear the cap of "new bourgeois elements."

××: In my view, these people, in short, are not members of the Communist Party. But the main task is to rectify the Communist Party. Whether you’re from a laboring-people background, or an overlooked landlord or rich peasant... In short, the result of the campaign: the number of households having caps placed on them must not exceed 7%–8%; the number of individuals not more than 10%.

Xuefeng: Does that include those presently capped?

Chairman: What do you think? Otherwise, too many people would be offended. You have to understand, they aren’t a monolithic block either; there are changes—some rich, some poor; some rise, some fall; some good, some bad; some in power, some not. I’m a bit right-leaning on this question now. That many landlords, rich peasants, Kuomintang members, and counter-revolutionaries—if peaceful evolution classifies 20% of the population, of 700 million people, how many would that be? I’m afraid a "leftist" trend would erupt.

Xuefeng: For cadres who can be won over, we must still work patiently to win them. Otherwise, the percentage of poor and lower-middle peasants would shrink drastically.

Chairman: Once the masses rise up and start classifying, their influence will affect your approach of following the mass line. The masses will demand more classifications; the cadres will also demand more. In the end, that won’t benefit the people, won’t benefit the poor and lower-middle peasants. The "four-unclean" cadres who embezzled 40–50 yuan, or 100 yuan, are the majority. Liberate that group first—then we’ll be the majority! Those who’ve made mistakes, clearly explain the reasoning to them; they still want revolution. The report mentioned workshop directors, section chiefs, and group leaders—all senior workers who made mistakes. Clarify things with them, and let them continue their work!

**[Continued from previous section]**
XX: There is such a thing as the "three big items" for the affluent class.

Chairman: They got rich first. Using methods like deducting work points—bicycles, wool sweaters, and later on, the poor and lower-middle peasants who became well-off.

XX: The "Four Clean-ups" as described by XXX is still good now; it can be applied to Party and government organs. Chairman: The original "Four Clean-ups" was called "One Clean-up"—just economic. Whose account does it go under? Is Hebei's the patent? (Everyone discusses: The meaning of "Four Clean-ups" was already proposed from the positive side in the first Ten Articles; it was added by the Chairman. Later, through Comrade XXX's report, the Hebei Provincial Committee also proposed it from the negative side.)

XX: In North China, the Socialist Education Movement is all called the "Four Clean-ups." Xuefeng: We first talked about unclear economics, unclear politics, and later added the organizational aspect. Comrade XXX's report included the ideological aspect, making four 'unclears'.

Chairman: I have no impression of this. I do not approve of you downplaying XXX's role. The earliest I saw was XXX's.

Kang Sheng: XX's formulation of the four 'unclears' is very good. I deeply appreciated his report.

XX: You're attributing the credit to Hebei; Comrade XXX is also from Hebei. When landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, and bad elements seize power, they are all bad; there won’t be any good ones. The problem lies when poor and lower-middle peasants hold power.

Chairman: As long as we liberate those who [embezzled] one hundred to one hundred and fifty yuan.

XX: That's not certain. Many embezzled several hundred yuan, and quite a few embezzled several thousand yuan or a thousand jin of grain. Probably those who embezzled up to one thousand yuan should be liberated, but restitution must still be made.

Chairman: It’s like squeezing toothpaste; you can’t squeeze it all out. What can you do? Leaving a little is also acceptable. Squeeze it so clean? Be lenient!

XX: We must squeeze out as much as possible. One exploits the masses, another exploits the state. Restitution must still be made, strictly demanded, and thorough. Particularly egregious cases who resist to the end should face confiscation.

Chairman: The state also belongs to the people. We ourselves have nothing. Strictly demanding restitution—correct! But it should be fair and reasonable. No need to emphasize "thoroughness."

XX: How wide should the target of attack be? Setting a certain percentage might be beneficial. Some well-behaved landlord and rich peasant elements can also have their labels removed—those are very few. Children of landlords and rich peasants have different situations: some have split households, some haven’t; some behave well, some average, some very badly.

XX: What percentage is beneficial to control the target of attack? At the very beginning, differentiation among "Four Unclear" cadres is necessary. A few well-behaved landlords and rich peasants shouldn't wear labels either. Putting labels on a very small number of poor and lower-middle peasants and middle peasants also has benefits. For example, some can be labeled as new despotic elements. But the majority should be differentiated and won over. They shouldn't be cadres or Party members. They are not targets of attack; they are still targets for winning over.

XX: It’s not time for that yet. In the future, there will be new exploiting elements who engage in excessive consumption and embezzlement.

Chairman: Excessive consumption and embezzlement—it's very complicated! Mainly it’s people like us, with cars, heated houses, and drivers. I only get 430 yuan; I can't afford to hire anyone, yet I must hire a secretary...

XX: How much restitution should there be?

XX: Once the restitution is more or less done, that's fine.

Chairman: When the masses know about it, handling it to a certain degree is enough. Don't squeeze the toothpaste too clean. In some places with only eighteen households, there's not a single louse; must we insist on catching a louse?

XX: Can we designate one or two such elements per production brigade? Some need to wear hats. Once labeled with some kind of element, it's easier to handle. Wearing a hat, it can be taken off later. Chairman: Call them 'elements,' leave them a way out—that's good! It doesn't involve the family, and the label can be removed! For others with good labor performance, don't label them as embezzlement elements.

XX: Those who have done well, who took the initiative, don't label them as any kind of element.

Chairman: Chen Ping divided the meat very evenly. When he was Prime Minister, he was corrupt. Zhou Bo and others then accused him of corruption, saying he gave high official positions to those who gave more money and low positions to those who gave less money... Liu Bang then talked to him, saying, ‘People accuse you of corruption.’ He said, ‘I support many people; I simply have no money!’ Liu Bang said, ‘Giving you forty thousand taels of gold to build a united front.’ Once he had the forty thousand taels of gold, he stopped being corrupt. The opera ‘Hongmen Banquet’ isn't performed these days. Ma XX performed it with great passion and solemnity. Throughout history, examples of corruption [in high office] have often cited him (Chen Ping), especially by Cao Cao. Right now the situation is at a boiling point; I’m afraid of pouring cold water on it!

XX: As long as the masses are fully mobilized, they understand reason. Chairman: Sometimes not necessarily so. When the masses rise up, they can be blind; we too can be blind. In the past, during the Wuhan period, when the masses rose up, factories closed, wages were cut, and unemployment resulted—blindness.

XX: I had my doubts at the time.

Chairman: Right now we fear pouring cold water. You must gauge the atmosphere. For now, it's still anti-Rightist. Not counting December, from January, February, March next year... at least keep it going for another five months. First, don't be too lenient, but don't make the target of attack too broad. Second, don't pour cold water. Don't have the lower levels announce it! Oh, we talked about not squeezing the toothpaste too clean—so embezzlers can even become Prime Minister.

XX and Xuefeng: The targets of the enemy campaign should include serious "Four Unclear" cadres, new-born bourgeois elements, old bourgeois elements in society, and landlords and rich peasants. (The former) should be called embezzlement elements or speculator elements.

XX: Agreed. Regarding "Four Unclear" cadres, they must make restitution; if it hasn't been clarified yet...

Chairman: In places where the "Four Clean-ups" haven't been done yet, you can first have some [grain/money] borrowed from [the collective/state] to relieve the poor; then conduct the campaign. If embezzlement is uncovered, then they don't need to repay.

XX: Roughly how much restitution can be achieved? Can it reach seventy or eighty percent? If only fifty percent is restituted, they probably won't pass.

Chairman: The question is whether the actual goods still exist. If they don't exist, you can't squeeze them out. If they do, squeeze. It's just the 'Four Big Items'—gold and silver, houses, whatever is buried underground. (Xuefeng: Serious "Four Unclear" cases, speculation, and...)

XX: In the cities, it's even more different. The "Three Original Policies" for joint state-private enterprises—the United Front Work Department has historically never attacked the bourgeoisie. Before every movement, a notice to protect capitalist personnel is issued. Old and new [bourgeois/problematical elements] are mixed together. The serious ones are at the top—in factories and companies. Therefore, the first step's target must be clear: we must concentrate forces on rectifying departments, rectifying factories, and rectifying Party organizations. For example, in a ministry, first rectify the Party core group members; in a factory, first rectify the Party secretary and factory director, etc. This principle must be clearly stipulated; otherwise, the cadres in power will slip away.

Chairman: First deal with the jackals, then catch the foxes. That's how you find the problems. You can't succeed if you don't start with the power-holders.

Xiannian: If you don't rectify the power-holders, it will eventually fall on the heads of the poor and lower-middle peasants.

Chairman: That's the fundamental issue right here.

XX: First deal with the jackals, then catch the foxes. Don't emphasize class strata [in a rigid way]. Otherwise, if you emphasize bourgeois engineering and technical personnel, or focus on petty thieves below, or target students from capitalist backgrounds who aren't power-holders, the cadres will have great motivation to struggle [against them]! As a result, the cadre [targets] can easily slip away. Then you can't accomplish [the rectification of] cadres. For example, the root of the problem at the Baiyin [Nonferrous Metals] Factory lies in the provincial committee and the Ministry of Metallurgy. Unless you get to the root, the Baiyin Factory cannot be fixed.

Chairman: Who is the root in the Ministry of Metallurgy?

XX: I haven't heard who the root is in the Ministry of Metallurgy. (XX: Wang Heshou, of course.)

XX: The principal contradiction at the current stage is the contradiction between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. At present, it's mainly the "Four Unclear" [issues]... focusing on "Four Unclear" cadres and those in power.

XX: If not fully cleaned up once, it will happen again later.

Chairman: Just leave it untouched for two or three years, and it will come back. This is independent of man's will. One, those missed in classification; two, newly emerged ones; three, those who have become corrupt—these are the power-holders. We must target the main ones. Of Du Fu's nine poems in "Chu Sai" (Song of the Frontier), people only remember these four lines: 'To draw a bow, first draw the strongest; to use an arrow, first use the longest; to shoot a man, first shoot his horse; to capture the bandits, first capture their king.' They don't remember the others. Once the big ones are dealt with, you can slowly clear out the other foxes! In dealing with the Ministry of Metallurgy, we also 'capture the king first'—capture Wang Heshou! Don't let him be Minister; send him down to be a factory manager. Dismount his horse, then reform him.

XX: The focus is the Party.

Chairman: The focus is in the Party. The Ministry of Metallurgy is the Party Committee, the Baiyin Factory is the Party Committee, the provincial committee is also the Party Committee, as are the prefecture, county, commune, and branch committees. Once we grasp these, we have a solution. When you, Gao Yangwen, first went to Baiyin Factory, you were also shielding it; your stance changed after you started doing on-site investigative work. You, Wang Heshou, shielded it—have you changed?

XX: When Peking University was rectifying Lu Ping, bourgeois professors came out to protect Lu Ping. When Comrade XXX was in Yan'an, wasn't he criticized as being Rightist? Tsinghua University did well; they mobilized the masses.

Chairman: This person surnamed Lu—when XXX was rectifying XX, I stood on your side. Can XX still serve as the president? No, XXXXX! It seems Tsinghua did relatively well. (Someone asks: 'Four Clean-ups' vs. 'Four Unclear' as the principal contradiction in the countryside, is it okay to put it that way? Not okay!) (Another asks: What is the nature of these affluent strata...?)

Chairman: What nature? A capitalist nature that opposes socialism. And also add feudalism and imperialism?! Because we conducted the democratic revolution, which opened the road for capitalism and also opened the road for socialism. Your squatting on-site work is opening the road... Anyway, we won't finish it all; leave it to the next generation. Don't use our ages as the standard.

XX: The two types of contradictions are intertwined; that’s where the complexity of the problem lies.

Chairman: They're embezzling and stealing, and still [claiming] socialism?

XX: Some places have no lice; some have very small ones. There's a tactical issue here; bad cadres have made arrangements [against the work team].

Chairman: You try to rectify him—won't he make arrangements?

XX: The "Four Unclear" cadres have spread many rumors, like "First they'll rectify the masses, then the cadres." We should make it clear that it's the cadres [who are being rectified].

Chairman: So what? First rectify the cadres!

XX: Cadres who engaged in excessive consumption and embezzlement must make restitution; all commune members do not. It's not just the poor and lower-middle peasants who shouldn't be targeted [for that]. This relieves the masses' worries. Next, liberate the cadres who embezzled moderate amounts. For things shared between cadres and commune members, only make the cadres return the portion they took excessively.

Chairman: One divides into two! One is the masses, the other is the cadres.

XX: Then concentrate on dealing with a small number of serious cases. Chairman: With that many steps, I really don't approve of your method in Anyuan, starting by contacting the low-ranking office workers! In your Anyuan, figures like Guan Zhiyuan, Zhu Jintang, Zhu Shaolian with his two wives—we contacted him, kept in touch all along. When we wanted to set up a union on the Canton-Hankow Railway, we didn't know anyone. We found a foreman, also with two wives, who was later executed too.

XX: Win over the majority, isolate the minority. Don't fall into traps. Establishing roots and making connections, as Comrade Xuefeng said, and rooting oneself among the genuine old poor peasants—that is correct. But the ones you initially root in might not necessarily be good ones. Brave elements can also be utilized in the beginning.

Chairman: Brave elements can be utilized! When we first started fighting, we relied on those hooligan elements—they weren't afraid to die. There was a period when the army wanted to purge hooligan elements; I didn't agree.

XX: Honest root persons—it’s not always possible for the work team to identify them right at the start. The ones identified may not be good ones; they only come forward once things reach a certain boiling point. Don't tell the root person that they are the root.

Chairman: What's all this about root person or not? After all, just engage in socialism.

XX: Activists emerge one batch after another through struggle. When you get to that point, they're the old-timers. Can you say they aren't old-timers? Chairman: Wasn't Li Lisan an old-timer? When the critical moment came, he didn't carry on, so they asked our state Chairman to go [and take over the Anyuan strike negotiation].

XX: Not just Li Lisan; Jiang Xianyun also fled. Li Lisan was known by many people because he was the one who announced the victory. Back then, our activity rule was: no killing allowed. If you kill someone, we will stop work.

Chairman: If that mine stopped for three days, it would be completely flooded.

XX: Regarding histories of exploitation, some people don't agree [with the scrutiny]. When looking for poor and lower-middle peasant activists, you won't pin down the right ones at first. At XXX's place, they had to replace over thirty percent! Probably, they must be gradually discovered through struggle.

Chairman: If you only go for the honest ones, they often can't get things done...

XX: Cadres and poor and lower-middle peasants should be dealt with simultaneously. Working back-to-back, he doesn't know what's happening. Cadres expose cadres; the masses expose [cadres] separately, though information will still leak.

Chairman: There are always well-informed people! Why does that poor peasant household where Zhao Ziyang stays keep a dog? To guard against eavesdropping.

XX: First, work back-to-back; later, let them sit on the podium of the presidium. Let poor peasants first participate in the cadre "bath-taking" meeting, but don't let them become the chairman immediately.

Chairman: He probably hasn't read Sun Yat-sen's 'Primer on Democracy.' Can you get a brave element to act as chairman? In short, calling the lumpenproletariat that bad won't do. There was a period when the army wanted to wash them out; I didn't agree.

XX: Experience with the "Five Antis" is still limited. The proportion of factories with a rotten leadership core is probably not small. There are problems at both the basic and middle levels. We must rectify the leadership core, and middle-level cadres should also be rectified, as should basic-level cadres.

Chairman: Has Wang Heshou changed his stance?

XX: He has made progress. Chairman: He's changed for the better; I'm very pleased. This man has some connection with me. Learning from the PLA, learning from Daqing—without him, I wouldn't have known [about some aspects].

XX: In short, once you detach from physical labor, the direction becomes wrong. Must participate in labor.

XX: Whether the "Three Together" can be realized is the main key to whether one can truly do on-site squatting work and connect with the masses. Especially, participating in labor is necessary. Once you participate in labor, the problems are solved. At the Chongqing Iron and Steel Plant, Ren Baige squats on-site there, and their system of "Three Fix and One Top" is implemented very well. Some cadres have only learned the skill of steelmaking.

XX: That group of people has technical talent; they shouldn't be separated from production. To do [these technical] jobs, just give them some time [off from manual labor].

Chairman: How many hours a day?

××: For a team leader, half an hour to an hour is enough; for a workshop director, one to two hours is also sufficient.

Chairman: All office staff must go down. At Daqing, with tens of thousands of people and all kinds of public opinion, a firm order sent everyone to labor. This time, ×× really scolded them! We need everyone to go to the grassroots. My scolding didn’t work, but when ×× scolded them, they still went down.

××: Most of the cadres are veteran workers; they should be criticized and won over.
Chairman: That’s why we must issue a resolute order. We need a Qin Shi Huang. Who is China’s Qin Shi Huang? It’s ×××. I’ll serve as his assistant.

Fuzhi: There’s the issue of how to handle surplus personnel, and also the matter of bonuses, which are originally part of workers’ wages—how should these be dealt with?

××: In factories, there are more good people, and cadres are no weaker than those of us who go down. When we pull them out for training, their tasks aren’t fully occupied! If you pull out 20% and develop some experience, we’ll have a solution. The cadres conducting the Five Antis campaign in factories should be drawn from the factories themselves. Factories have many people; pull them out to train backbone elements. Xie Fuzhi did it this way, and Chen Zhengren also trained 400 people.

Chairman: This should be done nationwide. You (pointing to Xie), take half the people from that factory and set up another factory. One factory should run two plants.

××: Factory technicians and engineers must also participate in class struggle and take part in movements to become both red and expert.
Chairman: They’re not that expert either. They don’t connect with the masses, don’t participate in labor, don’t hear opinions, or just glance around without putting in hard effort... Issue a resolute order, like Yu Qiuli’s method: out of 60,000 people, there were 7,000 with various opinions...

××: There are all kinds of opinions: "Participating in labor delays research work," "I was just promoted, and now they’re sending me to labor"...
Chairman: Still, issue a resolute order—everyone must go down.

(Someone suggested: We need to organize revolutionary committees. Currently, many trade unions are corrupt and no longer effective.)

××: The Luoyang Tractor Factory is holding a representative assembly for the Five Antis campaign.

××: The trade union system probably won’t work anymore. Reorganize from scratch, starting with rooting and connecting, discover good ones, and reorganize under whatever name works—just make sure it’s revolutionary. Begin by organizing 20% to 80% of the activists.
Chairman: Even 30% would be remarkable.

××: Additionally, how should surplus personnel from factories and government offices be handled? If they’re all turned over to higher authorities, what then?

××: They can’t be handed over. As Xuefeng said, let three diligent ones squeeze out one lazy one—deal with it internally.

Chairman: It’s better to let three diligent ones squeeze out one lazy one right in the factory. Comrade Li Xuefeng said that! I didn’t say it! Using others as a dumping ground is no solution. Split the factory in two, and let three diligent ones squeeze out one lazy one—what’s there to fear? Properly disperse them.

××: Label those bad elements and send them to the countryside to labor—once they reform, that’s fine.

××: For those with homes to return to, can some go back?

Chairman: For those with homes to return to, how many tens of thousands went to Jiangxi and then ran back? It’s better if the factory relocates. Concentrate a few thousand with only a few dozen cadres to manage them. You say there’s no way to deal with that 40%? If they’re all handed over, where do I send them? Hand them over to him (pointing to the Premier).

××: I still think this way—the prospects are infinitely bright. A township with tens of thousands of people, a factory... Yesterday, Comrade Li Xuefeng talked about epistemology: where do correct ideas come from? If leadership is good and we truly do well, with Marxism-Leninism, enhanced culture, epistemology, and Mao Zedong Thought, we can create a political situation where there is both centralism and democracy, discipline and freedom, unity of will, and individual ease of mind—lively and vigorous. In a large factory, a county, or a big city, if the methods of thinking and working are mishandled, it’s disastrous—colors may change. Xingguo and Shanghang in Jiangxi produced so many cadres.

Chairman: And Yongxin too.

××: The Kirov Factory in the Soviet Union, formerly called the Hammer and Sickle Factory, sent its cadres across the entire country after the October Revolution. If we properly run a large factory, a big county, or a major city, we can produce methods and cadres that can transform the spiritual outlook of the entire nation and even the world. A large factory influences the whole city, the whole country, and the whole world. Now, as work teams gradually go down and keep at it, for our new-type figures...

Chairman: Lenin attached great importance to peasants and advocated the worker-peasant alliance. The Communist Manifesto is too fearful of the petty bourgeoisie, overstating its shortcomings and negative aspects. The petty bourgeoisie has dual nature—it depends on which aspect you emphasize. How many petty bourgeois are there in China? There are even more lumpenproletarians. Toward lumpenproletarians, we’re even less polite. Just emphasize their negative side? They have a positive side too! According to our experience, they can be reformed.

××: The same applies to government offices—limitless brightness. The fundamental issue is having a strong leadership core, with Marxism-Leninism, the proletarian ideological system, the Three-Eight Work Style, and the Four Firsts... If we do it well and persist, the human and natural landscapes will greatly change. If we keep doing this for many more years, the world will change. That would be a great contribution to the world proletarian revolution. The October Revolution was lively and vigorous; Stalin built socialism, but later it became lifeless, and then Khrushchev messed it up... There’s no precedent in the world for unleashing the masses to carry out revolutionary struggle under socialism. A journalist from the Icelandic Communist Party asked me how to prevent capitalism from being restored.

Chairman: Two possibilities. One is restoration, the other is no restoration.

××: I answered them with these methods: mobilize the masses for the Four Cleanups and Five Antis; don’t set wages too high; promote half-work, half-study; gradually eliminate the difference between mental and physical labor—three things. Start doing this. Chairman Mao spoke of three great revolutions: class struggle, production struggle, and scientific experimentation—to avoid revisionism and ensure building a strong socialist country. When we participate, we form such a work style. Starting now, China’s population accounts for one-third of the world’s total. If that one-third does well, the other two-thirds will follow.

Chairman: We hope to do well and build a country that’s presentable. That’s one possibility; there’s also the possibility of doing poorly—then what? Nothing much. Don’t be impatient; don’t expect that we can accomplish everything in our lifetime. Probably if one-third of a province does well, the other two-thirds can be left alone. Once that one-third stirs into action, the other two-thirds will also stir. In your Hubei, with 71 counties, one-third is 24 counties—that would be good.

××: But to do well in one county or one factory... it won’t work without putting in labor, without Marxism-Leninism and Chairman Mao’s epistemology...

Chairman: Throughout history, epistemology has been discussed without linking it to concrete work. If you divorce epistemology from concrete work, what’s the point of studying philosophy? What use is it!

××: With it, we can create...
Chairman: Not everyone will feel at ease; there will always be some who don’t—landlords, rich peasants, counterrevolutionaries, and bad elements won’t feel at ease, and cadres guilty of the Four Unclean Things will feel uneasy for a time. Otherwise, why would they blockade?

××: Should we execute people? I think we should do it sparingly... At the pilot sites, executions are generally disadvantageous. Once you execute, the broader areas will inevitably panic. But we can’t say not a single person should be executed; the timing must be considered.

Chairman: The point is to create a shock. What’s so harmful about executing more? First, afterward, if we want to use them later, the living source is gone; second, it offends their families—it’s the hatred of a father’s murder. Those to be executed can first be locked up. We must not refrain from executions entirely, nor should we execute too many—just a few to create a shock. What’s there to fear from a shock? The point is to create a shock. There’s one more thing: if an execution is wrong, the dead cannot be brought back to life.

××: Like that Li Huiliang in Tianjin—if we execute him, there’s no material to use, and his family... If we don’t, we offend the broad masses.

Chairman: Problems arise in the opera circle.

××: What class status should be assigned to the sons of landlords and rich peasants who engage in labor?

Chairman: They’re commune members, and of course they’re peasants! Does socialism not allow others to join—do you monopolize it all?

Xuefeng: Poor peasants and middle peasants are also called commune members—this title doesn’t resolve the class status issue.

Premier: Just call them ordinary peasants! Call them peasants.

Chairman: You can keep arguing about it! (End)