Participants: Mao Zedong, E.F. Hill, Wang Hai-jung
Archive: National Archives and Records Administration
URL: https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/conversations-between-mao-zedong-and-e-f-hill

Chairman Mao: You are welcome.

Hill: Thank you. I am very glad to see you.

Chairman Mao: You have been here for a long time.

Hill: Yes, about five weeks.

Chairman Mao: Have you been to other places?

Hill: Yes, we have been to Shanghai, Harbin, Anshan, and a place near Mukden.

Chairman Mao: Have you been to Wuhan?

Hill: No, we have not.

Chairman Mao: It is very hot there.

Hill: So I believe.

Chairman Mao: You are from Australia. It is summer there now.

Hill: Yes, it is quite warm.

Chairman Mao: How many people are there in your party?

Hill: There are three of us.

Chairman Mao: Are they all from the Communist Party?

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: Are there any workers?

Hill: Yes, one is a worker.

Chairman Mao: How many members are there in your party?

Hill: About 800.

Chairman Mao: Not too many.

Hill: No.

Chairman Mao: How is your work?

Hill: It is very difficult.

Chairman Mao: Why?

Hill: Because the modern revisionists are doing their best to deceive the people.

Chairman Mao: Are there many people who believe them?

Hill: Yes, quite a number.

Chairman Mao: It seems that in many countries there are quite a number of people who believe them.

Hill: Yes, that is so.

Chairman Mao: They talk about peaceful transition.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: Do you believe it?

Hill: No, we do not believe it.

Chairman Mao: Do you think it is possible to seize state power through peaceful transition?

Hill: No, we do not think so.

Chairman Mao: They say that the Soviet Union is a state of the whole people and the party is a party of the whole people. Do you believe it?

Hill: No, we do not believe it.

Chairman Mao: Is there any class struggle in the Soviet Union?

Hill: Yes, there is class struggle.

Chairman Mao: Who is struggling against whom?

Hill: The working class and the collective farmers are struggling against the privileged stratum.

Chairman Mao: It seems that in the Soviet Union the laboring people, who comprise the majority, are in opposition to the revisionists, who comprise the minority.

Hill: Yes, that is so.

Chairman Mao: The same is true in other countries.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: The revisionists are in the minority, and the Marxist-Leninists and the broad masses of the people are in the majority.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: Therefore, we are optimistic about the future of the world.

Hill: Yes, we are too.

Chairman Mao: Are you afraid of difficulties?

Hill: No.

Chairman Mao: It is necessary not to be afraid of difficulties. We Communists are brought up in the midst of difficulties. Without difficulties, we cannot survive. Do you agree with this view?

Hill: Yes, I do.

Chairman Mao: We have been struggling for several decades.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We have encountered many difficulties.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We have been encircled, suppressed, attacked, and vilified. Have you ever been vilified?

Hill: Yes, we have.

Chairman Mao: It is nothing serious to be vilified. If you are right, they will finally have no alternative but to acknowledge it.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: Truth cannot be blockaded.

Hill: That is so.

Chairman Mao: We are not afraid of isolation. Are you afraid of isolation?

Hill: No, we are not.

Chairman Mao: We are prepared to be isolated.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: It is nothing serious to be isolated. Did you read the article "May We Never Forget Class Struggle?"

Hill: Yes, we did.

Chairman Mao: It is a very important article.

Hill: Yes, it is.

Chairman Mao: We must remind ourselves of class struggle every year, every month, and every day. Our viewpoint is different from theirs. They deny class struggle.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: They say that class struggle is over. We say that class struggle is not over. Where there are classes, there is class struggle.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: Class struggle is a reflection of the contradictions between two different world outlooks.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: Do you agree with this view?

Hill: Yes, I do.

Chairman Mao: Which class do the revisionists represent?

Hill: They represent the bourgeoisie, the rich peasants, and the bourgeois intellectuals.

Chairman Mao: They represent the interests of the minority who exploit the laboring people.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: They are afraid of the people.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: They are afraid of the truth.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: They are afraid of Marxism-Leninism.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: They are afraid of us.

Hill: Yes, that is so.

Chairman Mao: Therefore, we must struggle against them.

Hill: Yes, we must.

Chairman Mao: Are you confident of success?

Hill: Yes, we are.

Chairman Mao: We are also confident of success.

Hill: That is very good to hear.

Chairman Mao: The future of the world is bright.

Hill: Yes, it is.

Chairman Mao: Not pessimistic.

Hill: No.

Chairman Mao: We are not pessimists.

Hill: No.

Chairman Mao: We are revolutionary optimists.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must work in a down-to-earth way and not be arrogant.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must be modest and prudent.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must serve the people wholeheartedly.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must not be divorced from the masses.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must consult the masses when matters arise.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must be good at investigation and study.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must not be subjective.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must not be one-sided.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must look at problems from all sides.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must not be metaphysical.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: We must be dialectical.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: Do you understand dialectics?

Hill: Yes, we have studied it.

Chairman Mao: It is necessary to study dialectics.

Hill: Yes, it is.

Chairman Mao: It is necessary to use dialectics to observe and handle problems.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: It is necessary to use the method of class analysis.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: It is necessary to use the viewpoint of class struggle.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: It is necessary to use the viewpoint of Marxism-Leninism.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: Only in this way can we avoid making mistakes.

Hill: Yes.

Chairman Mao: Do you agree with this view?

Hill: Yes, I do.

Chairman Mao: I am very glad to have met you.

Hill: I am very glad to have met you.

Chairman Mao: I wish you success.

Hill: Thank you very much.

Chairman Mao: Please convey my regards to all the comrades in your party.

Hill: I will certainly do so.

Chairman Mao: Goodbye.

Hill: Goodbye.

Wang Hai-jung was also present.