Chairman: Welcome.

Which countries are you friends from? (At this point, the foreign guests stood up and introduced themselves to the Chairman one by one.)

Are you still studying, or have you finished?

Gerard: I have finished. (Other foreign guests replied: We are still studying.)

Chairman: Do you have any questions to ask?

Have some tea. Those who wish to smoke, smoke; those who don’t, don’t. (All laugh)

Serge Barrio: I would like to understand Comrade Mao Zedong’s views on our country, Peru—what kind of country you hope Peru will become, and what hopes you have for Peru.
Chairman: First, I must ask you—what are your opinions? (The Chairman smiles) I am not very clear about the situation in your country.

Serge Barrio: Comrade Mao Zedong says he knows little about the situation in our country. I know that is the case, because our country is far from yours, and our government prohibits people from coming to China, so very few Peruvians have come to China. Nevertheless, our country has a very long history in Latin America, and in the future, Comrade Mao Zedong will soon be able to hear that it can make a very important voice heard in Latin America.

Chairman: What very important voice?

Barrio: The voice of revolution.

Chairman: What kind of revolution?

Barrio: A revolution against the bourgeoisie, against imperialism, against capitalism, against the oppressor classes, and against the oppressor nations.

Chairman: Do you oppose all bourgeoisies? Does your country have a national bourgeoisie? Is there a patriotic, anti-imperialist national bourgeoisie?

Barrio: In most Latin American countries, especially in some countries in the west and south, the forces of the progressive bourgeoisie are very weak. Most of them are closely tied to the interests of imperialism and the big bourgeoisie. Therefore, the possibility of their forming an alliance with the interests of the revolution is very small.

Chairman: I support your opposition to imperialism and to those who serve as running dogs of imperialism. As for others—first, the workers and peasants, and then the patriotic national bourgeoisie, which may include a small number of progressive elements (such people are relatively few)—we should form a united front with them. In this way, the targets of opposition, the objects of revolution, will be fewer, and the revolutionary forces will be greater. Do you agree? Because the oppressors in the world are always a minority—only a few out of a hundred—thus, we can unite over 90 percent of the people. This is a common issue for us, a common issue for all of Latin America, Africa, and Asia. In Europe and North America, it is broadly the same. For example, in the United States or in Britain, the leaders of the Labour Party, the Social Democratic Party, the Socialist Party, and the big trade unions in the U.S. all help the bourgeoisie. A large part of the working class is not yet awakened, but in the future they will become awakened.

So we only oppose the imperialists and their running dogs in various countries. Other people, we do not oppose. We do not oppose the entire American people, for instance. He (pointing to Serge Barrio) does not agree again.

Any other questions?

Aliou: We are representatives of the Federation of Black African Students in France and the General Union of Students of West Africa. We would like to take this opportunity to say a few words to Chairman Mao Zedong, and through Chairman Mao Zedong, convey our respects to the Chinese people. We would like to let Chairman Mao Zedong know about the situation in Africa and to receive answers to some questions you are aware of, just as Chairman Mao Zedong replied to our Peruvian friend just now.

We are very glad today to be received by Chairman Mao Zedong, and we wish to take this opportunity to express our highest respects to Chairman Mao Zedong and the Chinese people. Geographically, Africa is far from China, but our shared struggle against imperialism, old colonialism, and neo-colonialism has forged a deep friendship between us and the Chinese people over many years. Now, although we have only been in China for a few weeks, we have seen many things. We have seen China’s enthusiastic construction efforts, and the participation of the Chinese masses in this construction work. Africa was once a colony of many countries, such as France, which granted independence to many of these countries. However, the people have not truly participated in the work of reconstruction. We thank Comrade Mao Zedong and other Chinese leaders for their consistent support to African nations. We African students are engaged in the struggle against imperialism. It is precisely because of this struggle that we have established relations with the All-China Students’ Federation, and it is because of this struggle that we are able to come to China today. Through this discussion, we hope to help Comrade Mao Zedong understand the situation in Africa, and we also hope Comrade Mao Zedong will share some views on the situation in Africa.

Chairman: Does any African friend have another question?

Eklo: I believe that we in Africa now face another danger, a real problem—and I wonder if Chairman Mao Zedong can agree—the problem of one country within the socialist camp. This country was once a very good ally of ours, but now it is revisionist. In the past, I had the opportunity to study in France, and now I am studying in a socialist country—Czechoslovakia. There, I see the direct influence of revisionism every day. We have been studying in Czechoslovakia for three years, but during these three years, they have asked us not to talk about the anti-imperialist struggle. For example, at some meetings, what we see is just letting everyone dance, without helping to raise our political awareness, without teaching us how to arm ourselves and fight for our freedom. I can give an example. The Venezuelan students used to organize annual meetings to discuss the situation of the struggle in their country. But since last year, after Venezuela established commercial relations with Czechoslovakia, such meetings have been banned. They told the Venezuelan friends: “You can study here, but after returning home, do not take part in the liberation struggle.” Another example: Since Czechoslovakia established diplomatic relations with the Ahidjo government, Cameroonian students studying there have been unable to hold any gatherings. The same situation applies in Prague and in Moscow. Last year, I was invited to attend a branch meeting of the Cameroon People’s Union. Their leaders had consulted with the authorities but achieved no results. In the end, the gathering was held only in a student’s room. Of course, some African students studying abroad are not yet awakened. They still think that not talking about politics or anti-imperialism is a good thing. I can give yet another example. I once spoke with a member of the Czechoslovak Peace Committee. He said that all actions had been taken against the Federation of Black African Students. But we believe that the Federation of Black African Students in France is a progressive organization. How can the Czechoslovak authorities say such a thing? These examples show that Africa is facing a revisionist danger. The question now is whether it is a matter of the international communist movement, whether we are all willing to participate in this struggle, while some among them portray the current debates in the international communist movement as merely a dispute between Beijing and Moscow. We believe this is not a dispute between Beijing and Moscow, but a question of whether the people of the world want revolution, and whether we should compromise with imperialism. This is my own view, and I wonder if Chairman Mao Zedong would agree with it. We believe this is not a quarrel between Beijing and Moscow, not a quarrel between two national capitals, but a problem facing the world revolution. As the Peruvian comrade has said, it is a matter of the struggle against imperialism, colonialism, neo-colonialism, and the reactionaries in all countries—that is, a matter of struggling against imperialism. And, in fact, Africa has already suffered under imperialist domination. The question now is whether to cooperate with imperialism or to coexist with imperialism.

Chairman: Imperialism consists of certain groups that oppress the people of various countries. How can the oppressed peoples of the world peacefully coexist with them?

The problem of imperialism, neo-colonialism, and old colonialism is the problem of the running dogs in each country. No matter who those people are, if we do not oppose them, there can be no talk of revolution, nor of revolutionary victory. Not talking politics and just dancing cannot overthrow imperialism. (All laugh) The revisionists want you to submit to their line of compromising with imperialism. They also want us to submit, and they want the revolutionary peoples of all countries in the world to submit. We do not submit. We do not submit to imperialism, nor to old or new colonialism, nor to revisionism. Nor do we submit to their running dogs in various countries. For example, in China, there is such a running dog—the most famous figure is Chiang Kai-shek. Can we cooperate with Chiang Kai-shek? Chiang Kai-shek now has his own friends on the mainland—the remnants of the landlord class and the remnants of the bourgeoisie. We cannot cooperate with these people; we must educate them and reform them through labor. If they rise up in rebellion—for instance, by sabotaging, burning houses, destroying livestock, engaging in speculation and profiteering, killing people, or assassinating revolutionaries—we must carry out suppression. Our policy is just that: relatively simple and clear, without any hemming and hawing. Whether it proves effective or not, as long as they oppose us, we oppose them.

You know, for example, the revolutions in Algeria, Cuba, and South Vietnam—we have openly supported all of them. The armed struggle in Congo (Leopoldville) we have also openly supported. Tshombe is a running dog of imperialism; we do not establish diplomatic relations with him, and we stand on the side of the Congolese people. For instance, with Ghana, we support the struggle of the Ghanaian people. The imperialists have twice attempted to assassinate their president, and we oppose such brutal, inhumane acts of assassination.

The revolution throughout Latin America is hopeful, and not just in your country, Peru. You (pointing to Serge Barrio) ask me what the future holds for Peru. Peru’s future, like that of all Latin America, lies in using revolutionary struggle to overthrow imperialism and its running dogs. I am referring to the big, loyal running dogs, not those who have fewer ties to imperialism. In this way, our united front will actually be able to expand further.

Any more questions?

Ernesto: On behalf of the representatives of revolutionary organizations from Haiti, Peru, Colombia, and Venezuela in Latin America, we first thank Chairman Mao Zedong for receiving us and, through you, express our highest respect for the Chinese people’s prolonged revolutionary struggle against imperialism and its running dogs.

Chairman: Thank you.

Ernesto: We also express our respect for the efforts the Chinese people are making in socialist construction. At the same time, on behalf of the revolutionary organizations of Haiti, Peru, Colombia, and Venezuela, we thank the Chinese people and the Chinese government for the support they have given to our countries’ liberation struggles. The Chinese people and government have also provided similar support to the liberation struggles of other countries in Asia, Africa, and Latin America. We are deeply convinced that China will stand on our side in the struggle against U.S. imperialism and for national liberation.

We agree that in the struggle against imperialism, we should unite as many people from various strata as possible. The general line of our revolutionary movement organizations is precisely to build the broadest possible united front. Of course, we cannot overlook the difficulties in establishing such a broad united front within our countries. The Cuban revolution has provided an example for the peoples of our countries. The Cuban people have made the vast masses of Latin America realize that they can wage a struggle against imperialism, and have also made the reactionary bourgeois strata understand what such revolutions mean to them. The revolutionary movements we are now waging against imperialism have profound political significance and are now being conducted under the guidance of the Marxist-Leninist line. Therefore, these bourgeois elements must choose: either join the workers and peasants in the struggle against imperialism and for national liberation, or share profits with imperialism.

We believe that in the end, due to the powerful alliance of workers and peasants, these bourgeois elements will cease to serve imperialist interests and will instead join the national liberation struggle. This also includes certain middle strata, primarily the progressive intellectuals. The difficulties will be greater in some countries and smaller in others. We are also deeply convinced that final victory will belong to the peoples of all our countries.

Chairman: Well said, I agree. Final victory will always belong to the peoples of the world. There is already much evidence of this. For example, did Cuba not achieve victory? Of course, it is not yet a final victory. Did China not achieve victory? Neither is it a final victory. Final victory will come when imperialism worldwide has been overthrown and the peoples of all countries have turned over and stood up.

Many countries around us host military bases of U.S. imperialism, and our Taiwan has yet to be liberated. Can we consider our current situation as a final victory? No. This is a matter of decades. If U.S. imperialism is not overthrown, if these military bases are not withdrawn, if the Japanese people are not liberated, and if countries like South Korea, South Vietnam, the Philippines, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, and Malaya do not drive out the imperialists and overthrow their domestic monopoly capitalists or pro-imperialist elements, then our country cannot achieve final liberation either.

If Latin America, Africa, all of Asia, as well as Europe, North America, and Oceania are not liberated, even if one country or a few countries are liberated, final liberation remains impossible. It can only be considered a temporary liberation, as in the cases of China, Cuba, Algeria, North Vietnam, and North Korea. But we face a formidable enemy. So we must unite with you, stand on the same front, and struggle against our common enemy.

Are the thoughts of the friends from various countries present here unanimous?

×××: Not unanimous. There are Marxist-Leninists, and there are nationalists.

Chairman: It doesn’t matter if there isn’t complete agreement. Some believe in Marxism, some don’t yet believe, and some even have religious faith. But we can unite on the point of opposing imperialism and its lackeys. Who is the chief of imperialism now? It is U.S. imperialism. Of course, as far as Africa is concerned, countries like France, Britain, Belgium, Portugal, and Spain still have influence. In Latin America, U.S. influence is predominant. We can unite within the united front against imperialism.

Revisionists not only fail to oppose imperialism but also hinder us from doing so. We don’t approve of that and must criticize them. Now both imperialism and revisionism continue to deceive the people, so we must engage in criticism. The friend just now (referring to Eklou) spoke well—he has done critical work.

You (referring to Eklou), which country are you from?

Eklou: Togo.

Chairman: Where is Togo?

Wang ××: In West Africa.

Chairman: Which country does it belong to?

×××: It was originally a French colony.

Chairman: Has your country gained independence?

Eklou: It is nominally independent. The so-called independence now means having an anthem and a flag.

Chairman: You’ve recognized this point. There is a difference between nominal independence and actual independence, isn’t there?

We must do mass work. If intellectuals do not unite with workers and peasants, do not work among them, and do not rally them, but instead separate themselves from workers and peasants, then that is not good. Intellectuals are not a class. If they do not belong to the proletariat, they belong to the bourgeoisie. If they do not serve the proletariat, they serve the bourgeoisie. They can serve this class or that class. For example, in our China, there is Peking University in Beijing. Did you visit it?

×××: No, because it was on vacation.

Kossi Gapsou: We visited the People’s University.

×××: Which university did you see in Shanghai? (Reply: none were visited.)

Gérard: We saw Jiaotong University in Xi’an.

Chairman: In the universities, secondary schools, and primary schools of any city, the professors, teachers, and administrative staff there were all from the Guomindang before liberation. Few professors or teachers were ours. Those people served the Guomindang and were pro-imperialist—some pro-Japanese imperialism, some pro-U.S. imperialism, some pro-French imperialism, some pro-German, and some pro-British. At the time of liberation, only a very few ran away. Over 90 percent of professors and teachers stayed and served us. Now some have progressed and embraced Marxism, some are still in an intermediate state—middle-of-the-roaders—and a small number have very right-leaning thoughts, with their minds still stuck in the old ways, likely accounting for a small percentage. They support revisionism, though they don’t openly proclaim it. A very tiny minority hopes that Chiang Kai-shek will return. Society is this complex, but it doesn’t affect the overall situation, because the left and the middle, united, account for over 90 percent.

You might ask: Why, 15 years after China’s liberation, are there still many middle-of-the-roaders and even some rightists? Foreigners say we are “brainwashing.” Why haven’t these people’s brains been washed yet? (The audience laughs.) Ideological work is indeed not easy to do; it requires time. You cannot force them to wash their brains. (The audience laughs.) You can only persuade them, only reason with them—you cannot coerce them. They must gradually understand and gradually awaken by themselves. These people do not get close to workers and peasants; they detach themselves from the masses. Now we are thinking of ways to bring them closer to workers and peasants.

Intellectuals who are detached from the masses are of little use. This is our experience, and it is also Lenin’s experience, as well as that of Marx and Engels. So, we hope you will not detach yourselves from the people, from the workers and peasants who make up the vast majority of your country’s population.

To do mass work, you must make friends. If you don’t have workers and peasants as friends, you can’t understand the state of their thoughts. This means you must do investigative and research work. For intellectuals, getting close to the masses and conducting investigation and research is not that easy. First, intellectuals are accustomed to urban life, so they are reluctant to go to the countryside for investigative and research work—you can’t even drive them there. (The audience laughs.) They’ve become used to it. Second, going to the countryside to do investigation and research does not mean you have truly made friends there. Because intellectuals carry intellectual pretensions, putting on airs like lords, which peasants can’t stand. Approaching workers with the same lordly airs also makes workers uncomfortable. At first, they can’t figure it out—they don’t know whether you’re there to help them or harm them. I have this kind of experience myself: it takes a process. For example, organizing trade unions and launching strikes—only through a process do the workers come to believe that you are helping them, not harming them. When speaking to peasants, you must never put on intellectual airs or look down on them. I’ve said something like this before: In a certain respect, intellectuals are among the most knowledgeable people, but they don’t have as much knowledge as workers and peasants.

Because the books we read—whether they are books on Marxism, capitalism, or even the Confucian analects of feudal times—contain only book learning. None of these books teach us how to make revolution. Only Marxist books teach us how to make revolution, but even reading these doesn’t mean you then know how to make revolution.

Reading revolutionary books is one thing; carrying out revolution is another. I’ll take this opportunity to share a bit of my own experience. You may not agree now, but perhaps one day in the future you’ll recall what I’ve said today.

Before liberation, China had only a few million workers—about four million workers—and hundreds of millions of peasants. The exploiters and oppressors in all of China numbered only a few tens of millions, about 5 percent, roughly over 30 million. So, which side should we stand on? The side of the minority exploiters, or the side of the hundreds of millions of peasants and millions of workers? At the beginning, I wasn’t clear on this question, because I had read Confucian and capitalist books. Later, after reading Marxist books and organizing the Communist Party, I made up my mind to embrace Marxism. My worldview changed—from being an idealist to a materialist, and gradually to a thorough materialist. What is a thorough materialist? It is a dialectical materialist and a dialectical historical materialist.

I’ve spoken too long; time is up.

Kossi Gapsou: I believe all comrades will agree with my words. We feel that to meet such a great figure today is an exceptionally rare opportunity. We are deeply moved and very grateful for everything Comrade Mao Zedong has said. We were deeply impressed and moved that in such a short time, he could draw conclusions about the entire world situation and offer so much advice on how to conduct struggle. Comrade Mao Zedong also told us that no matter how many revolutionary books we read or how many revolutionary words we speak, if we don’t go deep into the countryside, learn from the masses, and integrate with them, we cannot become true revolutionaries. At the same time, we feel that Comrade Mao Zedong is very concerned about African affairs. We feel that China has consistently helped the African people carry out revolution and helped the people of all countries around the world in their revolutions. We can assure Chairman Mao Zedong that we will hold high the banner of revolution until the people of all nations finally cast off the shackles of imperialism and old and new colonialism. Thank you, Chairman.

Chairman: Let’s conclude here. Are there any other questions?

Foreign guests: We hope Chairman Mao Zedong will sign our copies of The Poems of Chairman Mao.

Chairman: Certainly.

(The foreign guests asked the Chairman to sign. Finally, they shook hands with the Chairman and bid farewell.)