Chairman: Let's take a photo first, shall we?

(Photo is taken, then they sit down.)

Chairman: You're from Africa, Zanzibar?

Ali: Yes.

Chairman: (To Jiang XX) What language are you speaking?

Jiang XX: English.

Chairman: (To Ali) I hear you've been in China for a few years.

Ali: Yes, four years.

Chairman: You've done a lot of work for us, helping the Chinese people with radio broadcasting.

Jin XX: He helped us launch broadcasts in Swahili and helped train Swahili-speaking cadres for us.

Chairman: Good!
Ali: Beijing Radio has also helped our people, helping them understand world affairs.

Chairman: Can it be heard clearly?

Ali: Very clearly. Not only in Zanzibar, but throughout the entire Swahili-speaking region, it's heard very clearly.

Chairman: How many countries are there?

Ali: Tanganyika, Kenya, part of Uganda, and the Congo.

Chairman: Which Congo? The big Congo?

Ali: Almost both Congos.

Chairman: Ah, Kenya, Tanganyika, Zanzibar. Two Congos.

(Ali lights a cigarette for the Chairman.)

Chairman: Thank you! (Said in English)
Why do you want to go back?

Ali: It's what the country needs.

Chairman: The country wants you to return. There's a minister from your side in this delegation from the United Republic who came this time. Have you met him?

Ali: It's Babu. I've met him.

Chairman: I'm meeting him for the first time this time. He's very tall.

Ali: Yes.

Chairman: Is he now working again in the capital of Tanganyika?

Ali: He hasn't gone. He may go in the future.

Chairman: Were you friends in the past?
Ali: Yes. Actually, it was he who introduced me and brought me to China.

Chairman: Once you're gone, there'll be no one left.

Ali: There still are some. There are six other Zanzibaris still working.

Chairman: So with two of you leaving, four will remain?

Ali: No, I mean there are six more. One at the radio station, four at the Foreign Languages Press, and one at the Foreign Languages Institute.

Chairman: All from Zanzibar? Any from Tanganyika?

Ali: There is one. He works at a Chinese publishing house, translating into Swahili.

Chairman: The climate where you're from is different from ours here, isn't it?

Ali: Yes, but we've gotten used to it. It doesn't snow where we're from.

Chairman: You've been through several winters!

Ali: But I've already gotten used to it.

Chairman: Is your place in the Southern Hemisphere or the Northern Hemisphere? Southern latitude or northern latitude?

Ali: Actually, it's on the equator.

Chairman: Isn't it very hot on the equator?

Ali: Yes, but we're just a small island there, so it's not too hot.

Chairman: An oceanic climate.

Ali: Yes.

Chairman: Do you have Chinese friends?

Ali: Very many, very many.

Chairman: Have you gone out to other places to visit and look around?

Ali: I have. In 1961, I went to Harbin, Guangzhou, Shanghai, Hangzhou, and other places. Recently, I also had the honor of going to Jinggangshan for a visit.

Chairman: Oh, you climbed up the mountain.

Ali: I also went to Ruijin.

Chairman: Oh.

Ali: I saw the seat of the first Soviet regime. We talked with the people of Jinggangshan, with old cadres, and with people from the old revolutionary areas. They told me a lot about the situation.

Chairman: In 1927 to 1928, we were there. It's been 37 years since then! Afterwards, we moved to Ruijin. The Ruijin area was larger, with a population of several million — not just Ruijin county alone, but dozens of counties. We fought many victorious battles there. Then came the Long March of ten thousand li to the north. From 1934 to 1935, we reached northern Shaanxi. We also reached Gansu. And we went to Shanxi, crossing the Yellow River to the vicinity of Taiyuan. Shanxi is close to Hebei Province. Later, during the war against Japan, our main center was Yan'an, in the provinces north of the Yangtze River. Afterwards, we expanded into Manchuria. After Japan left, Chiang Kai-shek came back. Chiang Kai-shek attacked us, so we fought him, fought for three and a half years, and smashed the majority of Chiang Kai-shek's forces, 90 percent of his troops. The remainder all fled to Taiwan. He has always relied on the protection of the United States. He still relies on their (the U.S.) Seventh Fleet now. So the United States and we still cannot make peace. U.S. imperialism is an extremely vicious imperialism and also the largest imperialism. It also has an impact on you.
Ali: Yes. The United States is now trying every method to infiltrate Zanzibar.

Chairman: Were Tanganyika and Zanzibar British colonies or semi-colonies in the past?

Ali: Britain colonized Zanzibar, calling it a "protectorate."

Chairman: There was a king, called the Sultan.

Ali: It was precisely because there was a Sultan that it was called a "protectorate."

Chairman: What about Tanganyika?

Ali: It was called a "trust territory."

Chairman: So there was no king then? Was it directly administered by Britain?

Ali: Yes.

Chairman: What about Kenya and Uganda?

Ali: Kenya was a colony. Uganda had a king and was also called a "protectorate."

Chairman: And Northern and Southern Rhodesia?

Ali: No king there, they were colonies.

Chairman: There are still quite a few white people there now, aren't there?

Ali: Yes. In Tanganyika and Kenya, there are settlers. In Kenya, because the climate is cooler, there are many settlers.

Chairman: How many? I've heard there are hundreds of thousands.

Ali: Yes, there are hundreds of thousands.

Chairman: I've heard 300,000.

Ali: Yes.

Chairman: What's the population of Kenya? Three million?

Ali: Eight and a half million.

Chairman: That many?

Ali: Yes, Tanganyika's population is even larger, nine million.

Chairman: Ten million.

Ali: Possibly. My figure is from a census taken a long time ago.

Chairman: Have you been to Tanganyika?

Ali: Only passing through.

Chairman: Have you been to Kenya?

Ali: Passed through when going to Uganda.

Chairman: Which route will you take going back now?

Ali: Through Pakistan, Kenya, possibly via Tanganyika to Zanzibar. There are two air routes there — one direct from Kenya to Zanzibar, and another from Kenya through Tanganyika to Zanzibar.

Chairman: Your skin color looks somewhat different from the people of Tanganyika.

Ali: Yes. Tanganyikans are somewhat darker.

Chairman: There's also Madagascar. The skin color of the people there is also different from other places in Africa.

Ali: Hmm.

Chairman: I hope you will have the opportunity to come to China again in the future.

Ali: China is already our home.

Chairman: Come for travel, for sightseeing. Let's end the talk here. Do you have any other questions?

Ali: Yes. I would like to ask you a few questions. Currently, the struggle of the African people is developing vigorously. The more the struggle develops, the greater the blow we deal to imperialism. But this struggle still has a very long road ahead. Although I have read quite a few documents, I still hope you will speak a little about your views on the prospects of the struggle of the African people.

Chairman: I am not too familiar with the situation in Africa. But in my view, over the past ten or eleven years—starting from Egypt's overthrow of the Farouk dynasty in 1952—the changes in Africa have been enormous. The British and the French were unwilling to accept defeat and carried out attacks on the Suez movement. Another place was Algeria, which fought a war for eight years. Algeria, with a small number of troops, resisted hundreds of thousands of French troops. In the end, French imperialism was defeated, and Algeria was victorious. Most recently, your country has also undergone changes. With a population of only 300,000, your country dared to rise up and overthrow the lackeys of imperialism, and imperialism dared not do anything about it. Tanganyika also became independent, and the British troops also left. What about Kenya?

Ali: Kenya also became independent, but after the mutiny, British troops are still there.

Chairman: And elsewhere? I've heard troops from African countries went in.

Ali: That was in Tanganyika.

Chairman: Oh, in Tanganyika.

Ali: The situation is a bit different in Kenya. Kenya has an agreement with Britain; Britain has bases there. British troops are only supposed to withdraw by the end of the year.

Chairman: They will eventually have to leave.

Ali: Correct!

Chairman: In the Congo—I mean the big Congo—there was Lumumba, a national hero, who was killed. But the struggle is still developing. In the last half year or so, the struggle has grown. In South-West Africa, Angola—a Portuguese colony—the struggle is also ongoing. Although I am not familiar with Africa, it seems to me, judging by the situation of the past decade, one can say that even greater changes will occur in the coming decade. Perhaps you see it this way too. We must look at it from a historical perspective, from a developmental perspective! What is somewhat more difficult is South Africa. In that place, there are over three million white people. They are unwilling to leave. For that place to be liberated, I'm afraid it will take a bit longer.

Asia, Africa, and Latin America—these three continents—all have revolutionary situations now. These three continents account for the vast majority of the world's population. This is a fact. This is the world's majority; Europe, New Zealand, Australia, and North America are the minority. (Ali offers the Chairman a cigarette.)

Ali: At present, there is no communist party in Africa. Do you think the time is ripe to establish communist parties in Africa? What are your views on the united front in Africa?

Chairman: The question of establishing a communist party depends on whether there are industrial workers in that place. In my view, there is industry in Africa; many countries have industry. Some was established by imperialists, some by Africans themselves. There are mines, railways, roads, and other industries. Even though there are no communist parties now, there will be one day. Nor is it the case that there are none at all now: there is one in Algeria, in Morocco, and in South Africa. The Algerian Communist Party is not a revolutionary party; it is a revisionist party. A revisionist party like that in Algeria is not even as good as the National Liberation Front, because the latter wages a national liberation war, while the Algerian Communist Party opposed the liberation war, obeying the orders of the French Communist Party. The Algerian Communist Party opposes us and is anti-China. The Algerian government and the Algerian National Liberation Front cooperate with us. I don't know what reasons or what interests are at stake for them to oppose us. I don't understand.

Another example is the Iraqi Communist Party in Asia. It is also anti-China, focusing only on opposing the Chinese Communist Party, and not paying attention to the crisis of a coup d'état they themselves faced. Just last year, a coup occurred; they killed Kassem and also killed the party's general secretary. Do you know about this?

Ali: Yes, I read about it in the papers.

Chairman: Many communists were killed, many revisionists were killed, and many progressive figures were also killed. Tell me, why does the Iraqi Communist Party oppose us?

Ali: They follow the baton.

Chairman: Follow the baton, pursue peaceful transition.

Another case is Brazil. They also do not approve of us because we disagree with peaceful transition. A few months ago, a coup occurred there, driving out the president. The leader of the revisionist party was sentenced to eight years in prison. This party leader came to China, named Prestes, a very famous communist who later became a revisionist. U.S. imperialism and its lackeys don't care whether you are a revisionist or not—they don't discriminate. Nine Chinese nationals were arrested, six were trade workers and three were journalists.

This is to say, revisionism does not oppose imperialism but compromises with imperialism and reactionaries. The African working class will learn its lessons. Some revisionist parties may emerge, and some Marxist parties may also emerge.

The question of the united front is a question of whether or not to oppose imperialism. All who oppose imperialism must be united. As for building genuinely socialist countries (not just in name) and establishing an economy of ownership by the whole people and collective ownership led by the proletariat, that is another matter. This not only touches the interests of imperialism but also the interests of the bourgeoisie. For example, now, it is possible for Algeria to take the socialist path. The older generation cannot keep up, including former provisional government premier Abbas and Belkacem; they cannot keep up with the people.

Class struggle—genuine Marxists-Leninists emphasize class struggle. Class struggle exists in society. We formed a united front with the Kuomintang twice. Once was during the Northern Expedition, in 1927. The second time was during the war against Japan. During the first united front, the Northern Expedition reached the Yangtze River basin. Once the Kuomintang gained power, it turned against us, so we had no choice but to fight it, went up to Jinggangshan, and later arrived at Ruijin.

Later, the Japanese invaded. Chiang Kai-shek felt that continuing to fight us was no longer feasible, so a second united front was established. This united front lasted eight years. On one hand, the Kuomintang united with the Communist Party to oppose Japan, but on the other hand, the Kuomintang opposed us every day. What were we to do? On one side there was Japan, and on the other, the Kuomintang. So we adopted a policy of both unity and struggle, with unity as the primary focus. In this way, we maintained ties with the Kuomintang for eight years. When Japan surrendered, the Kuomintang attacked us, and the united front broke down. So it broke down—so what? We won, and they lost. We had no big cities, no foreign aid, our army was small, we had no air force, no navy, no planes, no artillery, only light weapons—and these were not manufactured by us but captured from the enemy.

Doesn’t that mean there is no united front now? We drove him to Taiwan, yet there is still a united front. In fact, our united front has become even broader. We have eight democratic parties in China. When the Kuomintang was in power, intellectuals, university professors, and primary and secondary school teachers had only limited contact with us. After liberation, none of them left. We brought them all together. University professors in Beijing, such as those at Peking University and Tsinghua University, as well as those in Shanghai and Guangzhou, did not leave; they felt that following the Kuomintang offered no future.

The fundamental united front is the one with the workers and peasants. Only after liberation was the alliance between workers and peasants realized nationwide.

The Kuomintang represented the big bourgeoisie, the comprador class, and the feudal landlord class. I am talking about its later period. The Kuomintang once represented the national bourgeoisie and the broad masses of the people. At that time, under the leadership of Mr. Sun Yat-sen, it was China’s sole and most progressive political party. There was no Communist Party then. The Communist Party came later, founded only in 1921. Later, the Communist Party and the Kuomintang formed the first united front.

Afterward, the Kuomintang turned against the Communist Party. They fought for ten years. It became an agent of imperialism—of American and British imperialism. Why, when it had become an agent of the big bourgeoisie and the big landlord class, could we still form a second united front with it? Because Japan invaded.

When Japan invaded the Northeast, the Kuomintang was still fighting us. Only when Japan pushed south of the Great Wall and attacked the mainland did it feel compelled to make peace with the Communist Party. That is how the second Communist-Kuomintang united front came into being.

Chiang Kai-shek aligned with the United States, Britain, and France, opposing Japan, Hitler, and Mussolini—one faction of imperialism fighting another. Germany, Italy, and Japan became defeated nations. It depended on the conditions; at that time, we could also cooperate with the United States, Britain, and France. After the war, the situation changed. America sought to dominate the world. Japan, Italy, and Germany became defeated nations, while Britain and France were weakened. Why did Africa rise up? Precisely because imperialism was weakened, and Britain and France were weakened.

Presumably, Africa... For Britain, the United States, Belgium, Portugal, and Spain, and for the broad masses of people, there can be little goodwill. Why can we get along well with you Africans and Black people? We share common ground.

Ali: We Africans have waged a long struggle against imperialism. We saw China’s liberation. The struggle of the Chinese people gave us great encouragement. After China’s liberation, we came to understand China even more.

Our struggle has continued to develop because China has provided us with many experiences. China has given the African people immense support and encouragement, for which we are very grateful. China has issued many statements supporting us. In recent years, we have been able to visit China and see many places, which has been very helpful to us.

Soviet revisionism tells us to pursue peaceful coexistence and disarmament, claiming that these are our primary tasks, and says the money saved from disarmament should be used to aid us. But our struggle must rely on our own strength.

Chairman: Correct!

Ali: In this regard, revisionism is increasingly colluding with imperialism. In your view, to what extent has their collusion gone?

Chairman: Their collusion may deepen further. Imperialism and revisionism both collude and have contradictions. Among revisionists themselves, there are also contradictions. There are dozens of revisionist parties, but they are not very united. Neither are the imperialists very united among themselves. Look at France and Britain—they are not very united. Japan’s monopoly capitalists and the Japanese government first attacked America’s Pearl Harbor, then occupied the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaya, and Indonesia, pushed into eastern India, and occupied half of China. Korea, needless to say, was already its colony. Now all these places have become independent, though some remain under American control. South Korea, South Vietnam, and the Philippines are under U.S. control. Japan is also under partial American control. Do you think Japan—not just its people, but even its big bourgeoisie—feels comfortable? I don’t believe so. I don’t believe there are no contradictions between American imperialism and Japan’s monopoly bourgeoisie.

We speak of two intermediate zones. Asia, Africa, and Latin America constitute the first intermediate zone. Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and Japan form the second intermediate zone. Japan’s monopoly capitalists are bullied by the United States, and we oppose such bullying. Quite a few people are receptive to the idea of intermediate zones.

These words were not spoken just now; they were first said in 1946. At that time, there was no division into first and second zones—only the intermediate zone was mentioned, referring to the area between the Soviet Union and the United States, including China. 1946, 1956, 1964... eighteen years have passed. The words were spoken eighteen years ago. Back then, we were in Yan’an, and I spoke to an American journalist, her name was Strong.

Ali: I know her.

Chairman: She is in her seventies! At that time, the United States replaced Germany, Italy, and Japan, seeking to dominate the world. Its goal was to invade the intermediate zones, not to attack the Soviet Union. Anti-Sovietism is a slogan, a smokescreen. It is the same in nature as anti-China rhetoric, with the real aim being to subjugate the intermediate zones under the guise of opposing China.

Ali: I am concerned about the Chairman’s time. Please allow me to express my feelings. Ever since coming to China, I have been looking forward to this day, and now it has finally arrived. My emotions are beyond words.

Chairman: Have you read any Marxist-Leninist books?

Ali: Yes, I have, and I have also read your works.

Chairman: I learned from Marx and Lenin.

Ali: You have developed Marxism-Leninism. Your works are easier to understand than those of Marx, Engels, and Lenin.

Chairman: They are somewhat more accessible.

Ali: That is my feeling; your works are written in a very accessible manner.

Chairman: I don’t have many works.

Ali: No, you have many.

Chairman: Well, let’s stop here for now!

Ali and Mrs. Ali: Goodbye!

Chairman: Goodbye!