Mao: I told Abbas that the French army oppresses the people and cannot make use of our experience. I’ve heard that the U.S. military also uses our materials to teach the reactionary forces in South Vietnam to fight the Vietnamese people. Because our experience is that of a people’s army in combat, accumulated by the people’s army—in the final analysis, it’s of no use to them. (To Lariz) What books have you written?

Lariz: I wrote an article about how French officers wanted to use Chairman Mao’s works to fight against us. But they were fighting the people on behalf of the feudal lords, while the Chairman’s works teach us to fight the feudal lords for the sake of the people.

Mao: That’s right. In the end, France didn’t win—you achieved victory! Take China, for instance: didn’t we defeat imperialism and the domestic reactionaries? Didn’t you defeat imperialism and the domestic reactionaries? Didn’t Cuba defeat the running dogs of imperialism and win? We spent twenty-two years fighting, you spent seven years, and Cuba spent only three. The circumstances were different, hence these differences. Based on your circumstances and the enemy’s strength, it took you seven years; in Cuba’s case, only three years were needed. Based on our circumstances, it took us twenty-two years. Some accounts can’t be pinned on the enemy—they have to be pinned on ourselves. Our Party made many mistakes, including the error of Right opportunism, and several errors of “Left” opportunism. One was abandoning all our southern base areas—that can’t be blamed on Chiang Kai-shek, only on ourselves. Abandoned entirely, we ran a path of 12,500 kilometers. We fled to the north, abandoning the southern base areas. The army shrank from 300,000 to 20,000. At that time, I said, now things are easier for us, we’re more comfortable. This allowed us to sum up our experience. Later, those 20,000 troops fought the Japanese imperialists for eight years, growing to over a million, with the population in base areas reaching 100 million and Party members increasing from tens of thousands to several million. When you come to China to study, you must study this period of history, study our failures and the mistakes we made. You haven’t studied that yet, have you?

Na: Mr. Chairman, we have come to China to draw lessons from the views of Chinese leaders.

Talks During the Meeting with the Algerian Cultural Delegation
They led the Chinese people in a forty-year struggle until final victory. But what moves us most are China’s achievements, not its failures. These achievements were made possible under the Chairman’s leadership, with the establishment of strong political institutions. Over these past few days, we have seen the various stages of development of these political institutions. We first went to Guangzhou, and now we are in Changsha—of course, our journey has not entirely followed the historical sequence.

Since the Chairman mentioned our compatriot Abbas, I would like to clarify on behalf of myself and my comrades. Abbas belongs to the class you call the comprador class. The leadership group headed by Ben Bella is currently rectifying his errors. We are doing so in accordance with the revolutionary tradition the Chairman just mentioned.

Mao: He’s no longer in action now, no longer cooperating with you.

Na: We hope not only to improve our political institutions but especially to improve our ways of thinking.

Mao: That’s good.

Na: I don’t think I need to spend too much time discussing the situation following the departure of French colonialism from Algeria, as it was already covered in the last conversation with Premier Zhou Enlai. Premier Zhou also told us that Chairman Mao’s habit is to speak briefly. We regard this rule of the Chairman’s speaking style as our own rule. Another reason is that Chairman Mao fully understood the situation at that time.

Mao: It’s even better that they’ve all left. It’s cleaner there for you. It’s easier to write and draw on a blank sheet of paper. Your burden is lighter. You start anew, building from scratch with bare hands. What imperialism has done, what capitalism has done—our people can do too. I don’t believe that only the capitalists of Europe, North America, or Japan can accomplish these things. First, we have large populations—the oppressed people of the world are always in the majority. Second, among these people, there are always relatively good leaders and cadres; what they don’t know, they can learn. Difficulties can be overcome. Look, you overcame the difficulties posed by 800,000 French troops. Can the difficulties you now face in the economic, cultural, and political spheres not be overcome? I mention the political aspect because there are still those who oppose you, even those who want to overthrow you—are there?

Na: Around our country, there are reactionary capitalist forces, and domestically, there are lackeys of old and new colonialism who oppose our new-style democracy and freedom.

Mao: Are there none within the country?

Na: During the period of colonial rule, they fostered a certain bourgeoisie to oppress the people. This bourgeoisie became the local bureaucratic stratum. They sought to exercise control over the people. This group of bourgeoisie was entirely manufactured by colonialism. A portion of them once occupied important positions in the economic sphere. These people are the Rightist elements, reactionaries from the “Right”; there is also a reactionary force from the “Left.” These are people who claim to have progressive ideas—communist ideas—but are actually Trotskyites. The Algerian Communist Party is this faction. As you know, the Algerian Communist Party was under the leadership of the French Communist Party.

Mao: Your Communist Party always complains that we won’t talk to them, saying they have no political standing. We say: “You call yourselves a Communist Party. When it came to revolution, you didn’t join in; you opposed it. Only later, when the revolution showed some promise, did you say you wanted to join—by then it was too late.” So your Communist Party and we cannot find common ground. (Laughter) We, on the other hand, can talk with you all. This somewhat resembles the situation with Cuba.

Na: I thank the Chairman for expressing confidence in our healthy forces. My comrades and I will convey this to the revolutionaries of our country.

Mao: You were justified in purging Abbas and also Belkacem. Those people are no longer capable. So it depends on you, on your party. I’ve heard that the National Liberation Front is holding a congress soon?

Na: It opens on the 16th of this month.

Mao: Then when will you go back?

Na: On the 21st.

Mao: Today is the 15th, so you have four or five days left. What are your arrangements? Will you still go to Shanghai?

Na: We are waiting for Mr. Ding to resolve this issue.

Mao: (To Ding) Time is short. Consider their convenience—visiting fewer places is fine; don’t exhaust them too much. (Turning to the delegation head) Did you come from Guangzhou or from the north?

Na: We came from Hong Kong to Guangzhou, and then went to Beijing.

Mao: Seeing fewer places is also acceptable.

Na: Our thirst for knowledge is very high. Traveling in China takes a great deal of time, and many among us may not have another opportunity to come, so we want to take back as much as possible.

Mao: In looking at China, you must see both sides: the successes and the shortcomings, the errors. Without understanding one side, you cannot understand the other. Just as you also have these two sides. You have traveled a winding path to get here. Why couldn’t Abbas and Belkacem keep up?

Na: This is because—and this is the greatest lesson our visit to China has given us—the conditions of our country’s revolutionary movement were different. Although there was political preparation, it lacked an ideological foundation. In Changsha, we came to understand that for over twenty years, Chairman Mao’s foremost concern has been cultivating cadres and establishing centers capable of generating revolutionary thought.

Mao: Your current efforts in educating people and in ideological education seem very necessary. We’ve done the same. The bourgeois-democratic revolution had comparatively thorough preparation and decades of experience. Among the people, within the Party, and among cadres, what is meant by imperialism, feudalism, and the comprador bourgeoisie was fairly clear. The policies for dealing with them were also relatively clear. But we still went through twists and turns and made mistakes. As for how to carry out socialism, that was not clear at all. So now we must re-educate both veteran and new cadres in socialist education. Fourteen years after victory, we have again taken up socialist education. If we ourselves don’t understand, how can we educate others? Now the situation has improved somewhat.

Na: Regarding the revolutionary situation in my country, I would add one point: our country’s revolutionary thought was formed spontaneously, emerging spontaneously among the youth. Lenin once spoke of “Left-Wing” Communism: An Infantile Disorder. Our situation was in line with this concept. That is to say, we have experienced the stage of infantile disorder.

Mao: We also committed infantile disorders—as many as three times. The last time, we lost our southern base areas and ran over 10,000 kilometers—that was the Long March. At that time, we called it “dogmatism.” We didn’t base ourselves on China’s realities but simply copied from books, copied dogma, copied foreign experience. We also had several instances of Right opportunist errors, which in today’s terms would be called revisionism. Those ideas came from the bourgeoisie. In the future, you might look further into this period of our history—it won’t take much time; just a week or so will do. (To Zhou) You can also talk with them. Did you participate in the struggles against Chen Duxiu and Wang Ming?

Zhou (hereafter “Zhou”): During the struggle against Chen Duxiu, we were just kids—little devils. Against Wang Ming, we did take part in the later stages.

Mao: The first General Secretary was Chen Duxiu, who later became a Trotskyite. Several subsequent secretaries were also no good. So it’s somewhat similar to your situation. Our Party didn’t come along smoothly either; it came through hardships and adversities. Even now, not everything within our Party is fine. Many Party members wear the label of Party member but are in fact new bourgeois elements. Many cadres are the same. I suggest you understand this aspect; it may prove useful to you.

Na: My comrades and I believe that the opinions expressed by the Chairman are truth. Because you have led the greatest revolution of the 20th century. It is precisely these dark forces you spoke of that are capable of destroying the revolutionary cause. In our context (not only in Algeria, but across the entire Arab bloc), no standards of supervision have been established to identify elements who appear revolutionary on the surface but might actually destroy the revolution. I say this not in my capacity as head of the Algerian Cultural Delegation, but as a writer.

Mao: You’re a writer. What works do you have?

Zhou: He has fifteen books.

Mao: On what subjects?

Zhou: Mostly political. One of them is called “Afro-Asianism.”

Mao: Oh.

Na: Speaking of the book “Afro-Asianism,” I was just about to explain. Since I didn’t know the Chairman would receive us this evening, I left the book at the hotel and couldn’t bring it. For me personally, the purpose of coming to China was almost solely to present this book to the Chairman. To make up for this unlucky coincidence, may I go back to fetch it now?

Mao: That would be fine. (To Zhou) Are they here tomorrow?

Zhou: (To the delegation head) I can pass it on. Tomorrow we go to Shaoshan, the Chairman’s former residence.

Na: For me and my comrades, being able to visit the Chairman’s former residence will be the crowning highlight of our visit to China.

Mao: I’ve only been back to that place once since liberation. I left it over thirty years ago. In the past, it wasn’t that I didn’t want to go, but that the Kuomintang wouldn’t let me. (Laughter)

Na: We are very fortunate in China to be able to see the various stages of the Chinese revolution. First, in Guangzhou, we saw the Peasant Movement Training Institute. Later, in Beijing, we visited the Military Museum. There, we saw the course of the Long March. We heard that you refer to the Long March as heroic—here, the heroism refers to the event, not the individuals. When we left the museum, we noticed at the entrance a quote from Chairman Mao: “It is people, not weapons, that determine the revolutionary situation.” At the same time, we saw a similar remark by Lin Biao.

Mao: It’s all accomplished by people! At the start, we didn’t have a single weapon; now we have political power and can open our own factories. It is people who make weapons, people who use weapons, and people who seize weapons. You have not yet reached the stage of manufacturing weapons, but you have the capability for repair—

...factories producing weapons. These factories can later be transformed into manufacturing plants. Start with light weapons, and gradually develop to the point of manufacturing heavy artillery and tanks. You are bound to reach that stage. I simply don't believe that only the French can manufacture cannons while the Algerian people cannot. The French have accumulated two hundred years of experience; you have had only a few years. You will be faster than the French. France has a population of over forty million, you have over ten million. But why is it that your country, with a population of over ten million, defeated France, with a population of over forty million? So you are very promising.

My conversation with you is different from what I said to the delegation of French parliamentarians. I wouldn't tell them about the mistakes we made in the past. As for the mistakes we are still making now, even less so. (Laughter, applause) Because we hope you will understand the situation in China truthfully, not just one-sidedly. The representatives of the French bourgeoisie, they are not willing to hear such things. Talking about revolutionary experience is of no benefit to them. They oppose revolution, so what is the point of talking to them about it? You are a revolutionary party. When I meet a revolutionary party, I will introduce experiences from both sides. I only speak to you about this. I also speak to revolutionary parties from other countries, but not including their communist party. They won't come, and even if they came, we wouldn't talk about this.

N: Because the Algerian Communist Party is a follower of Thorez, while the Chinese Communist Party has been a student of Marx, Engels, and Lenin from the very beginning. The difference is very great.

Mao: With the French Communist Party, we also cannot talk. They haven't sent a delegation either. Now the communist parties are not united; there is a small contradiction, neither too big nor too small. This is very natural. For example, how can we get along in conversation (with their party) (referring to the Algerian Communist Party)? And like the French Communist Party, they oppose us every day, calling us dogmatists and also calling us Trotskyists. You are now talking with me, this Trotskyist, (laughter) talking with me, this dogmatist. (laughter) They just don't call us revisionists.

So, do you have any other opinions you'd like to share?

N: Just now I mentioned that we are very concerned about the development of the Chinese revolution in its various stages, and now it has developed to the stage of people's communes. This is a very important measure. We also know that this has drawn criticism from certain communist parties. But we believe this is the best "trump card" for China's march toward socialism and communism.

Mao: It may be, but we still need to see. It is still in the experimental process; the final conclusion is a matter for the future. Some communist parties oppose our measures, saying we are finished. This is like the imperialists. The imperialists also oppose our people's communes. The imperialists oppose them, and so do the French Communist Party and others. Perhaps there are some benefits, who knows? Otherwise, if there were no benefits at all, why would they oppose them? They would have to welcome them. That is to say, we are not taking the capitalist road but the socialist road. Your communist party is not prepared to practice genuine socialism.

We are also in no hurry to draw conclusions. Will the people's communes collapse or develop? We have to wait and see. A while ago, the imperialists said the Chinese government was going to collapse; now they don't talk much about it. It seems China has not collapsed yet. I, as a person, will indeed collapse—I will soon go to see Marx. Our doctors simply cannot guarantee how many more years I can live. This is an objective law; man is bound to perish—that is dialectics. All things have a beginning and an end, but the perishing of one person, or a group of people, does not mean the perishing of a country. Now Marx is gone, Engels is gone, later came Lenin and Stalin. Now these two are also gone. Has the world perished? Not only has it not perished, but it has developed even further. The Chinese revolution has triumphed, your revolution has triumphed. The Cuban revolution has triumphed. This is the law. (To the head of the delegation) How old are you?

N: Fifty-nine years old.

Mao: Still young. (To the deputy head) How old are you?

K: Twenty-one years old.

Mao: We can still live a few more years. You will live even longer.

K: We wholeheartedly wish Chairman Mao a long life without limit, as long as possible.

Mao: Saying "as long as possible" is good. One can only live as long as possible; it is impossible not to die. There has never been such a thing in Chinese history.

When you return, please convey my greetings to your President. I wish him good health, smooth work, and the strength to overcome difficulties and advance forward.

N: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for receiving us. You have sacrificed your time, and you originally had extremely important work. I would like to express the respect of the Algerian people. It is you who led the great revolutionary cause of China. What I want to express is that the Algerian people have heartfelt friendly feelings toward China. They share a common enemy, which is colonialism. The conditions of their struggle are almost the same. We know that you seized the enemy's weapons to defeat the enemy. The Algerian people also seized weapons from the French army to defeat the French army. We express our heartfelt respect to the Chinese people.

Mao: Express my respect to the people of your country, and to the leaders of your country. How do you write the full name of your President Ben Bella? (The interpreter wrote it on a slip of paper; after reading it, the Chairman kept it.)

N: Thank you. Once again, I express my heartfelt respect to you. Thank you for your warm reception.

Mao: Thank you. Goodbye.

April 15, 1964, Mao Zedong met with the Algerian Cultural Delegation in Changsha.