Chairman: How many people are in the delegation?

Ben Abdallah: Twelve people.

Chairman: How long have you been here? What day did you arrive in Beijing?

Abdallah: We arrived in Beijing on January 17th, and left Algeria on the 13th.

Chairman: Where are you preparing to visit?

Abdallah: We will also go to Shanghai for two days, Hangzhou for two days, Guangzhou for two days, and then return to our country.

Chairman: Will you return from Guangzhou via the southern route?

Abdallah: Yes.

Chairman: Did you come from the southern route or the northern route?

Abdallah: We came from the southern route, through Cairo, Rangoon, and Kunming. We very much hope to stay in China for a few more days, but because there is work in our country, and we have already extended our stay by a few days, we must now go back.

Chairman: You have won victory, and we are very happy. Your victory is a model, a great victory, where the few defeated the many. France's several hundred thousand troops were defeated. Why can the few become the many? The reason is that you have the masses; the masses of the people can defeat imperialism.

Abdallah: Our victory was not long ago.

Chairman: Does Algeria now have a population of twelve million? Some also say ten million.

Abdallah: Twelve million. However, Algeria has never conducted a census. In the past, the French colonial rulers treated the Algerian people like dogs; one or two million more, one or two million less, meant nothing to them.

Chairman: In the past, your provisional government told me that Algeria had a population of ten million, including one million French people. That would mean only nine million native people, and with over a million sacrificed in the war, there would be just under eight million. The people will surely be victorious. The population will only increase, not decrease, after a war. I say this based on our experience.

Our Party had only fifty-seven members at the beginning. At the First Party Congress in 1921, there were only twelve delegates. Of those twelve, only two remain now; the other ten either sacrificed themselves or became traitors. But the revolutionary forces developed and grew larger and larger. Our revolution took more than twenty years to achieve victory, fighting from 1927 to 1949, a full twenty-two years. When the Great Revolution of 1927 failed, the revolutionary forces suffered great losses, with the number of Party members dropping from fifty thousand to a few thousand. We had no experience then. Jiang Jieshi betrayed the revolution and fought a ten-year civil war with us. The Great Revolution failed because right deviationism emerged within our Party. Then, during the war, the Party grew stronger, the army grew stronger, and the base areas also expanded. We had three hundred thousand Party members, a three hundred thousand-strong army, and the population of the base areas was several tens of millions. At this time, "left" deviationism emerged. They wanted to attack the big cities, their social policies were wrong, they only wanted workers and peasants, and rejected the national bourgeoisie and the petty bourgeoisie. Their policy towards the national bourgeoisie was wrong; they did not distinguish the national bourgeoisie from the comprador bourgeoisie, so all the policies they proposed were wrong. As a result, we failed again and were forced to undertake the Long March. The Long March was not something we wanted to do; it was because our policies had failed and we had no other choice, so we fled from the south to the north. In this way, the three hundred thousand-strong army was reduced to less than thirty thousand, a loss of over ninety percent. The three hundred thousand Party members were reduced to only a few tens of thousands, and the organizations in almost all the big cities were wiped out. It was another great failure. But were these two failures—the failure of right deviationism in 1927 and the subsequent failure of "left" deviationism—a good thing or a bad thing?

Abdallah: This point that the Chairman speaks of, we understood it before we came to China. Failure has a negative side, but it also has another side: one can gain experience from failure. So one can also say that failure is the foundation of success.

Chairman: That is how we see it. Without these two failures, the Chinese revolution could not have been victorious. We could not have summed up our experiences, opposed right opportunism, and also opposed "left" opportunism, which enabled us to adopt correct policies. A policy of both unity and struggle.

The first failure was not seeing friends turn into enemies, only talking about unity and not about struggle. The second failure was only talking about struggle and not about unity, treating the petty bourgeoisie and the national bourgeoisie all as enemies. During these two times, relations within the Party were also not normal. So we summed up our experiences, and thus during the War of Resistance Against Japan, our policies were relatively correct. The War of Resistance Against Japan lasted eight years, during which our army grew from twenty-five thousand to over one million two hundred thousand, and the population of our base areas grew from a few hundred thousand to over one hundred million. When victory came, the Japanese left, and the Americans came. Jiang Jieshi had an army of over four million, and all the big cities, railways, and mineral resources were in his hands. The Guomindang launched an offensive against the liberated areas across the country, occupying many of our towns and villages. We even lost Yan'an. Many foreign friends also thought we were finished. Yan'an was a small city, with a population of only a few thousand, in a mountainous area. We used it as our base, and later this base was also lost. Many people thought the Communist Party had no hope. Later, we adopted a correct policy of retreat. We retreated for about a year, and in the process of retreating, we wiped out eight of the Guomindang's brigades. It was not until a year later that we were able to launch a counter-attack. The War of Liberation took a total of three and a half years, and Jiang Jieshi fled to Taiwan. Now Jiang Jieshi is still in the United Nations "representing China," and we are still called "bandits." (The whole room laughs) The French established diplomatic relations with us yesterday. It was only after your victory that the French recognized you. That's good too! Some countries still do not recognize us: Italy, Belgium, West Germany, Japan, and mainly the United States. Their policy is to isolate us. At that time, we were like you. Before you signed the Evian Accords with France, your situation was not so good either; it seemed you were very isolated. In fact, you were not isolated. What was there to be isolated about? Your relations with Tunisia were not good, and not long ago your relations with Morocco were also not good. I don't think it matters much. There are very, very many people who sympathize with you. The Chinese people sympathize with you, and the vast majority of the people in Asia, Africa, and Latin America sympathize with you. You also have friends in Europe; there are friends of yours among the French people.

Wasn't the French government your enemy in the past? Your enemies are also our enemies. Imperialism is our common enemy. Things in the world are bound to change. When the French left, how difficult it was for you: no grain, no teachers, no doctors, no medicine, insufficient funds to start factories. Now you are still in a difficult stage, with no engineers, no technicians; you need geological workers to prospect for oil and for various minerals, but it will take a process to build such a team of geological workers. In short, you will get things done. From having nothing to having something, from having little to having much, from being unable and not understanding to learning and understanding. I say this based on our experience. For example, an army: we didn't have one, now we do. You didn't have an army either, now you do. Or take fighting a war, who knows how? I didn't know how to fight a war; wasn't it learned? If matters of the army and matters of war can go from having nothing to having something, from being unable to being able, why can't we get economic construction and cultural construction done? Difficulties can be overcome, those who don't know can learn, and things that don't exist can be brought into existence. Don't have so many superstitions; superstitions must be broken. As long as one is willing to work, I don't much believe in superstitions, though I had them in the past. The enemy taught us many things. We must unite the people of the country. As long as we rely on the people, there is a way out.

It won't do to be divorced from the masses, is that not so? Some past leaders, you got rid of them. For a time, we didn't know the reason, but later it became clear that it was because they were divorced from the masses. Is that so? I don't know if I'm right.

Abdallah: The Chairman's analysis is very correct. The leaders of Algeria held a meeting in Tripoli in February 1962, at which a program was drafted and passed. At that time, a majority and a minority emerged. The majority did not include certain leading members of the former provisional government and cadres holding leadership positions in other departments. To our Chinese friends, this is no secret; the world's newspapers have also talked about it. That is, the minority was unwilling to submit to the majority, unwilling to accept the views of the majority. It can be clearly pointed out that the majority that emerged at that time reflected the will of the broad masses of the Algerian people. Later, a National Assembly was elected, and the National Assembly appointed the current government.

Chairman: In a revolution, there is always a portion of people who can oppose imperialism and colonialism, but when it comes to going a step further, they won't do it. We have also had such things happen. When it was about opposing imperialism, they did it; when it was about opposing feudalism, they did it. They considered themselves communists, but in reality, they were bourgeois-democratic revolutionaries. As soon as it came to building socialism, they wouldn't do it; they became reactionary. There is such a portion of people. This happens in every party, especially during a period of revolutionary transition; it is unavoidable. In the past, the majority was progressive, and the minority was backward. If political power is in the hands of the backward elements, then it is dangerous. You are now about to establish a party and will soon hold a party congress?

Abdallah: On this issue, brother Abdelaziz Djilani is a member of our Party's central leadership; he can speak about it.

Abdelaziz: The Political Bureau of the Algerian National Liberation Front has decided to hold a party congress. Just now, brother Ben Abdallah spoke of the 1962 Tripoli meeting. That was a manifestation of the internal divisions and struggles in Algeria during the war. The divisions at that time were said to be differences in methods of struggle, what methods to adopt in the struggle. At the 1962 Tripoli congress of the Algerian National Liberation Front, differences of opinion emerged, and the real contradictions existing in the leadership were revealed. The differences in method were not the substance; the substance was ideological differences. The trend at the Tripoli meeting was a progressive trend, a trend of moving forward. But can it be said that all contradictions were resolved after the Tripoli meeting? It cannot be said so. Due to the needs of our struggle, new contradictions have emerged during the period of economic construction, because our struggle is continuously developing and requires a revolutionary program and a revolutionary leading group to enable us to constantly advance.

This ideology of ours has been continuously established in our past and present struggles, and in the future, we must continue to advance, to build socialism, to make such a choice. It must be a clear choice. We are preparing a report to be presented at the future party congress.

Chairman: When will it be held?

Abdelaziz: The date has not yet been set. At the upcoming party congress, we will especially sum up past experiences: the experience of armed struggle and the experience of economic construction under the leadership of brother Ben Bella after independence. We are preparing to sum up the revolutionary experience since 1954 at the congress. These summations are important; they will allow us to understand what our past experiences were, and this will also enable us to clarify which direction to choose among the various ideologies in the future. This congress will lay an unshakable socialist foundation for us. This is the first party congress held after independence; it is a historic meeting, a meeting at a turning point in the history of the Algerian people, and it is very important for Algeria's political and economic construction.

Chairman: Did you come with them?

Abdelaziz: I came with them, but was received separately.

Chairman: Just one person?

Abdelaziz: One person. The legal delegation led by brother Ben Abdallah is here to study China's experience in the legal field. I am being hosted by the Central Committee of the CPC, responsible for work in another area, to study experience in another area.

Chairman: You can't study it. We are also in the process of groping; we have many mistakes and shortcomings. You must analyze them comprehensively before accepting them. Don't think that everything in China is good; China also has a bad side. There is a progressive side and a backward side. In our work, there is a correct side and also a mistaken side. This is how we have come through these past decades, constantly making mistakes and correcting mistakes. We do not conceal our mistakes. You (referring to the escorts) should not conceal our mistakes, only introducing the correct things and not introducing the aspects where we took a winding path or made mistakes. China's agriculture is very backward, and our industry is still far behind that of advanced countries. In our society and within our Party, cadres also change; some have become corrupt elements, in reality capitalists. Our policy is to educate them, to carry out the socialist education movement. It's a pity there isn't enough time to introduce our policies in detail. To a party like yours, a country like yours, we should introduce all our experiences without reservation. In our policy towards counter-revolutionaries and prisoners, we have also made mistakes. Have you seen our prisons?

Abdallah: We have seen the Beijing prison.

Chairman: Some of our prisons are run well, and some are not run well. (To the escorts) The Beijing prison is one of the well-run ones, right? The poorly run ones are not shown to you. (To the escorts) You should let them see a poorly run one. This is how things should be introduced: there are good ones, and there are bad ones. There are also well-run people's communes and poorly run ones. What we need to do now is to make the poorly run ones run well. You can also take a look at the army. The army is the main instrument of the dictatorship. You are engaged in legal work; it's not good not to see the army. If your country had no army, could your legal work still be done? Without the protection of the army, you could not survive. You should also see the police and the public security forces. (To the escorts) Contact the Military Commission and the Ministry of Public Security, and let them see the situation of the army, the police, the public security forces, and the militia. You are all engaged in legal work. You won't get much done by just working on legal articles. The problem cannot be solved by relying on prisons alone. We must rely on the masses of the people to supervise the few bad elements. The main thing is not to rely on court verdicts and imprisonment, but to rely on the majority among the masses of the people to supervise, educate, train, and reform the few bad elements. It is not good to lock up many people in prison; if the main labor force is in jail, they cannot engage in production. We can't finish talking today, there is no time. I can only introduce some key points. How many more days will you be staying?

Abdallah: We only have twenty-four hours left in Beijing.

Chairman: Some issues can be resolved in Shanghai. You can tell them that I said this: you must introduce the correct aspects, and also introduce the mistaken aspects; you must introduce the good aspects, and also introduce the bad aspects. This is the good method.

Abdallah: From now on, we will adopt this method.

Chairman: (To the escorts) This issue must be made clear to all localities.

Abdallah: I should also state that in the introductions given to us here, nothing has been concealed. They have introduced to us the experiences of victory and also spoken of the reasons for failure.

Chairman: Good, that's how it should be done. When I spoke of our past history, I spoke of this point of how we made mistakes. Mistakes have been very beneficial to us; they have educated us. We have learned experience from the aspect of success, and also learned experience from the aspect of failure. I think when you sum up your history, it will also be like this. There will always be a side that represents what is relatively correct. After you go back, to your President Ben Bella and other friends, if you are truly building socialism, I will be very happy. Then we will not only be comrades in the struggle against imperialism and feudalism, but also comrades in building socialism. To build socialism, one must unite the great majority of people, unite all who oppose imperialism and feudalism, unite all who work for socialism.

Abdallah: On behalf of all the members of the Algerian legal workers' delegation, I would like to express our thanks to the Chairman for the honor and pride you have given us. The delegation and the Algerian people express their warm wishes to the Chairman and the Chinese people. Now, please allow us to present this knife to the Chairman. It is a symbol of the victory of the Algerian armed struggle.

Chairman: A very meaningful gift. This thing is for dealing with the enemy.