Erroneous concepts, pointing out that what they said were all lies.
Mao: First, let's talk about the issue of views on China. You've come twice, and this time you've seen a bit more. We have no experience in engaging in socialism, including socialist revolution, socialist economic construction, and socialist cultural construction. It takes a process to gain experience. In the past, we engaged in anti-imperialism and anti-feudalism, or in other words, bourgeois democratic revolution, and we also had no experience. Later, we gained experience. The situation is roughly the same with our engagement in socialism.
Montgomery: Are you saying that the bourgeois democratic revolution refers to the revolution led by Sun Yat-sen?
Mao: Yes, the revolution led by Sun Yat-sen. Sun Yat-sen did not complete this revolution, we took it over and completed it in 1949. Our Party fought for twenty-two years, from 1927 to 1949. Initially, we had no experience in how to fight. We also had no experience in various military issues, political issues, and economic and cultural issues in the base areas at the beginning. Later, we gained experience. The Party was established in 1921 and achieved victory in 1949, a total of twenty-eight years. In these twenty-eight years, by 1945, the entire Party's thinking was unified, and we gained relatively complete experience, after twenty-four years. In 1945, the Seventh National Congress of the Party was held, summarizing the experience, so that we were able to resist Chiang Kai-shek's offensive and seize power later.
The difficulties at that time were much greater than now. First, there were several splits within the Party. Right-leaning opportunist errors, "left"-leaning opportunist errors, occurred several times. The southern base areas were completely lost, and we were forced to undertake the 25,000-li Long March.
Montgomery: When was that?
Mao: That was in 1934. Our army originally had 300,000 men. After making mistakes, suffering defeats, and the Long March, less than 30,000 men remained in the end.
Montgomery: That's a big difference!
Mao: Yes. Later, we arrived in northern Shaanxi, and then seized Yan'an. Later, the War of Resistance Against Japan began. We fought with the Kuomintang for ten years, and in 1937, the Kuomintang and the Communist Party cooperated again.
Montgomery: To deal with a common enemy, the Japanese.
Mao: To deal with the Japanese. At that time, we carried out internal rectification work in Yan'an, that is, the rectification movement, to unify the thinking within the Party and criticize right-leaning opportunism and "left"-leaning opportunism.
Regarding the difficulties caused by external factors, whether during the ten years of civil war with the Kuomintang or during the eight years of the War of Resistance Against Japan, our base areas were divided and unconnected. First, they were divided by Chiang Kai-shek, and after the Japanese invaded, they were divided by both Japan and Chiang Kai-shek. Under these circumstances, it took a process to gain experience, unify thinking, and make comrades who had committed right-leaning opportunist and "left"-leaning opportunist errors convinced, forming a general line consistent throughout the Party, and under the general line, there were also military, political, economic, and cultural lines. Only in this way did we have a complete set of policies suitable for China's specific conditions.
Montgomery: It was formed gradually.
Mao: It appeared slowly, taking a relatively long time, twenty-four years, from 1921 to 1945.
At that time, our situation was still very difficult, the base areas were divided, and we faced powerful enemies, not only imperialism, but also the powerful Chiang Kai-shek domestically.
Montgomery: Chiang Kai-shek had two million troops at that time?
Mao: No, later Chiang Kai-shek had more than four million troops. After the Long March, our army had less than 30,000 men, but because our policies were relatively correct, our army grew to 1.2 million in 1945, including guerrillas.
After Japan surrendered, Chiang Kai-shek directed his attack at us. At that time, he had more than four million troops. Our liberated areas were still divided. In July 1946, Chiang Kai-shek launched a large-scale offensive against us. However, by 1949, after fighting for about four years, we achieved victory, and our army gained the upper hand. At the beginning, we adopted a retreat strategy. You British had Dunkirk. At that time, you abandoned France, and your situation was very dangerous. The troops in Britain were sparse. Hitler was a fool. If he had continued to pursue across the sea from Dunkirk, you would have been in great difficulty.
Montgomery: He needed to cross the English Channel. An island has its advantages. The English Channel protected us.
Mao: Protected us, giving you time to reorganize your army, and then you counterattacked. When were you stronger? Before Dunkirk? Or after Dunkirk? I think it was after Dunkirk.
Montgomery: Yes. When Hitler launched the war, the British army was simply unable to fight anyone. In times of peace, politicians never take care of the army, and once war breaks out, they turn to the army for help. After Dunkirk, Britain was alone against the combined forces of the fascist Axis powers. The United States did not participate in the war, it stood aside, watching which side would win.
Mao: Exactly. At that time, France had Pétain, who controlled the whole of France; and there was also de Gaulle, who organized a government in Britain. Was Pétain stronger or de Gaulle stronger? De Gaulle had no territory at that time, and later he had North Africa. France was occupied by Germany, and North Africa was also occupied. Later, de Gaulle relied on the help of Britain and the United States to have North Africa, which was Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia.
We also had our Dunkirk, each base area had its own Dunkirk, which was in 1946 and 1947. At that time, our troops defending Yan'an had only 25,000 men, while Hu Zongnan's army had 250,000 men. The United States helped Chiang Kai-shek. At that time, Britain and France had no share in China. The vast majority of Chiang Kai-shek's weapons and financial and economic assistance were given by the United States.
Montgomery: In 1949, what were the main problems you faced? What were the main headaches that the Chairman was considering at that time?
Mao: In 1949, the whole country was in difficulty. The first was the problem of economic recovery. At that time, the nature of the revolution changed from democratic revolution to socialist revolution.
Montgomery: Which issues took priority in terms of importance and urgency at that time?
Mao: First, the land issue had to be resolved; there was also the economic recovery issue, including industry; and the issue of eliminating the remnants of imperialism. These were the issues. How to engage in socialist revolution and socialist construction? We had never done it before, we had no experience. The things we were good at in the past were gone. What we had to do was socialist revolution and socialist construction, and we had no experience.
Montgomery: You've done very well.
Mao: It's okay. We need to retrain cadres, and this has not been completed even now. We have been engaged in socialism for twelve years, starting from 1949, from having no experience at all to now having initially gained experience. This includes accepting the experience and assistance of the Soviet Union.
Montgomery: Could the Chairman tell me, when did you start to see "dawn"?
Mao: We saw it from the beginning.
Montgomery: I'm using a British idiom, meaning when did you feel that the future was bright and you had found a path?
Mao: For us, the future has always been bright. As for the road, it is made by people. Small paths are made by people, and big roads are also opened up by people. We gradually gain experience and gradually see the light.
Montgomery: I think that process is like groping in a dark tunnel, only seeing a little light at the exit of the tunnel. In the process of groping forward, when did you start to feel that you were on the right track?
Mao: It wasn't that dark. The overall situation was bright, but there were many difficulties ahead, and we encountered many things we had no experience with in the past, such as the major flood here in 1954, when Hankou was almost flooded. And the major droughts in recent years. Localized droughts had occurred in the past, but not nationwide ones.
Montgomery: And the impact of several years of poor harvests accumulated.
Mao: Yes. The so-called drought does not mean that all parts of the country are dry. This year, the most severe droughts are in Sichuan, Hubei, and Anhui, which is the Yangtze River basin.
Montgomery: In a country as vast as China, there will always be some areas that suffer from disasters. Generally speaking, it is drought in the north and floods in the south, but in individual places, anything can happen.
Mao: This year, the main drought is in the three provinces of the Yangtze River.
Montgomery: How is the water conservancy and irrigation work progressing? To what extent can it offset the impact of natural disasters?
Mao: It's still far from enough. In China, for thousands of years, plus our twelve years of work, only less than one-third of the arable land has irrigation. Other places still rely on the heavens for food. It has to be done gradually.
Montgomery: That is to say, China's total area is more than 9 million square kilometers, of which arable land is 1 million square kilometers. Of this 1 million square kilometers, only one-half can be irrigated.
Mao: This 1 million square kilometers is arable land, with both cultivated and uncultivated land.
Montgomery: When I visited Chairman Liu, he told me that in Chinese history, consecutive three-year droughts occur about once every hundred years. The previous one occurred more than eighty years ago.
Mao: I'm afraid that's the case.
Montgomery: Despite the poor harvests and the accumulated impact of several years, I think that due to your rationing system, everyone has enough to eat, right? Of course, not to say they eat very well.
Mao: There is enough to eat. The situation varies from place to place. Areas with good harvests eat more, areas with reduced production eat less, and severely affected areas eat even less, but everyone gets by. We use various methods to provide disaster relief. Among the 32 million people in Hubei, there are 5 million people in the severely affected areas, which is one-sixth of the population.
Montgomery: But your rationing and distribution system can ensure that there is no famine and that everyone has enough to eat. During my travels in various places, I have not seen a single case of malnutrition.
Mao: That's generally the case.
Montgomery: So what the West says is all nonsense, it's false. When I go back, I will tell everyone that everyone in China has enough to eat, but they have to tighten their belts a little. This is not surprising. We did the same during the war years. In fact, the only time I saw malnourished people during this trip was in Kowloon. There are many refugees from China in Hong Kong, about 40,000 every year, but no cases of malnutrition have been found among them.
Mao: You asked me what I think of China, and I want to say that I am optimistic about the future. We have accumulated twelve years of experience in engaging in socialism. This is half the time it took us in the previous stage to find a line agreed upon by the entire Party to defeat Chiang Kai-shek, which took twenty-four years. Our experience in economic development is not yet sufficient. Compared with Britain, we do not have as much experience in running factories as you do.
Montgomery: When you started to restore the economy in 1949, did you have a sufficient number of capable people to send to various positions?
Mao: Not at all. We had no experience at all in running large factories, we relied on the people left behind by the Kuomintang. We couldn't do anything ourselves. We could only run small factories and engage in agriculture. We had no way to handle large industries.
Montgomery: But you received technical assistance from the Soviet Union?
Mao: First, we relied on the engineers, intellectuals, and technicians left behind by the Kuomintang, and second, we relied on Soviet assistance. When we talk about Soviet assistance, we are referring to newly built factories. Shanghai did not rely on the Soviet Union, Soviet experts did not go there, it was all relying on the people left behind by the Kuomintang. Running schools also had to rely on the people left behind by the Kuomintang, we had no university professors ourselves. We couldn't even perform operas, we had to rely on the people left behind by the Kuomintang. This group of people is a treasure to us.
Montgomery: During this trip, I have been to Baotou, Taiyuan, Xi'an, and Luoyang, all of which have developed from small cities into large cities. For example, Taiyuan originally had only 400,000 people, and now it has 1.5 million. Where did these people come from?
Mao: The technical workers came from large cities, mainly Shanghai, followed by Tianjin, Shenyang, Anshan, and Dalian. The workers of Baogang came from Anshan.
Montgomery: In the factories I saw, the technical workers were generally older, but the vast majority of the workers were young people. Did these young people come from the countryside?
Mao: The young people were found locally, recruited from the countryside.
Montgomery: Are they willing to go? Are they willing to go to new places to work?
Mao: At first, they were a little afraid. They went from Shanghai to places like Baotou and Xi'an, just like your British immigrants went to the United States and Canada. At first, they heard that the north was cold and there was no food. Their mothers prepared food and clothing for them. After arriving there, they found that it was not so cold and there was food to eat, so they were happy to settle down.
Montgomery: Baotou is very cold in winter, as cold as minus thirty degrees.
Mao: It's only that cold for a few days a year, it's not always that cold.
Montgomery: New large cities will also encounter many problems in terms of supply and transportation. How large does the Chairman think cities should be in the future?
Mao: It seems that it's not good for cities to be too large. Several hundred thousand, such as 400,000 to 500,000, would be good.
Montgomery: China's transportation system seems to be very underdeveloped. Someone told me that the entire railway trunk line is only 25,000 miles long. A vast country like China should develop railway lines. I think there should be a railway from Xi'an to Yan'an, and then extend to Baotou.
Mao: It should be done this way. We have already done some, but it takes time.
The second question you asked is, what are the main problems I am considering. First are domestic problems, and then international problems.
Montgomery: What are the domestic problems you are talking about? Are they about food issues, housing issues, and improving people's living standards?
Mao: That's it, nothing more than people's food, clothing, housing, transportation, and daily necessities.
Montgomery: Of your 650 million people, are there 600 million farmers?
Mao: Not that many. There are about 500 million farmers and more than 100 million urban residents. We want to maintain this ratio.
Montgomery: I think this ratio is very good.
I have read the Chairman's works, especially the works on military issues. As a soldier, I find the Chairman's works on military issues very interesting.
Mao: We are in the same profession. Our problem used to be how to defeat a powerful army with a weak army.
Montgomery: Britain faced the same problem in the early stages of fighting Hitler's Germany.
Mao: Yes. But there is a difference, you had allied countries, you had the Soviet Union, you had the United States. We didn't have them, we had to rely on ourselves. And Chiang Kai-shek had a powerful ally, the United States.
Montgomery: No! In the early stages of the war, we had no allies.
Mao: You initially had France, but then France fell. Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, and Belgium also fell one by one. You originally had Poland and the Balkan Peninsula, but they were also lost.
Montgomery: Yes. We have a saying that the lights of Europe went out one by one.
I am very interested in the revolution that was started by Sun Yat-sen and later completed by Chairman Mao. Sun Yat-sen did not seem to understand that to make the revolution successful, it was necessary to awaken the masses. At the same time, he also did not seem to understand that it was necessary to build the Red Army on the basis of the broad masses of peasants. But Chairman Mao built the Red Army on a very broad mass base. Is my understanding correct?
Mao: Basically correct.
Montgomery: Since the revolution led by the Chairman was based on 500 million peasants, it is therefore necessary to improve the situation of the peasants first after the victory of the revolution.
Mao: That's right.
Montgomery: Otherwise you cannot survive.
Mao: That's right. Sun Yat-sen did not put forward the slogans of anti-imperialism and anti-feudalism. The people were oppressed by imperialism and feudalism. If these two slogans were not put forward, how could the people follow you? The Chinese people opposed imperialism, initially opposing your Britain, then Japan, and in the later stages, the United States. You withdrew from China after Japan invaded, in 1937. At that time, the main enemy of the Chinese people was Japan.
After Japan left, the main enemy became the United States, until now. Our main enemies are not Europeans, not Britain, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, or Spain. We no longer have hatred for you, we welcome you. We also have no hatred for the Japanese, and large numbers of Japanese people come every year.
Montgomery: The United States' attitude towards Japan is very strange. During World War II, they thought they could do anything evil to Japan, but now they have an attitude of doing endless good things to Japan.
Mao: It wants to support a part of the Japanese people, the pro-American faction in Japan.
Montgomery: I visited the Peasant Movement Training Institute in Guangzhou and saw how the Chairman trained cadres there and then sent them back to the countryside to promote the principles of the revolution. I think this is a very brilliant idea. Sun Yat-sen did not understand this principle, he did not understand that to carry out the revolution, it was necessary to send cadres to the vast countryside to promote the revolution to the peasants.
Mao: That's right.
Montgomery: I read a sentence in one of the Chairman's books: "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." I don't know how this sentence should be understood?
Mao: It means that the revolution must go through war.
Montgomery: Does the Chairman think this sentence is still applicable today?
Mao: I'm afraid it's still effective for some countries. I still believe in this sentence.
Montgomery: I once asked an African chief how to ensure the implementation of the chieftain inheritance system. He said: "This is guaranteed by my sword."
Mao: Did the British revolution go through war?
Montgomery: There was one, when Cromwell overthrew Charles I. At that time, a large-scale civil war broke out. But in many countries in Latin America, the revolution seems to be very effortless, and a revolution can be completed in the time it takes to eat lunch.
Mao: That doesn't count as a revolution, that's called a coup. The revolution we are talking about refers to one class overthrowing another class.
Montgomery: The Cuban revolution did not take long.
Mao: Less than three years. But the French Revolution was more complicated than the British one, with repeated wars.
Montgomery: I remember that the last time I talked with the Chairman, we came to the conclusion that not all revolutions are bad, some are good, such as the American Revolution, the French Revolution, and the Chinese Revolution.
Mao: I didn't say that.
Montgomery: No, I said that at the time.
Mao: I said at the time that all revolutions that overthrow exploitation and oppression and carry out the will of the people are just. Although the American Revolution was unfavorable to your Britain, the United States had to carry out the revolution at that time.
Montgomery: The American Revolution was not without benefits for Britain. If it were not for the American Revolution, that part of the royalist elements would not have gone north, and Britain would not have obtained Canada. If it were not for Cromwell's revolution, Britain's situation today would be very different, and perhaps it would still retain the political system of Charles I. Often, it is only through revolution that many of the tyrannies of the old regime can be swept away.
Mao: I think revolution will shorten the bloodshed and pain and reduce the losses. For example, China, after fighting for so many years, a total of twenty-two years, including eight years of fighting with Japan, made great sacrifices, but it recovered quickly. Revolution is not a question of whether someone wants to do it or not. I didn't think about doing revolution at first, I was an elementary school teacher at that time. There was no Communist Party at that time either. It was because of the pressure of the situation that I had to do it.
Montgomery: According to my understanding, first there was the Opium War in 1840, and then around 1880, Sun Yat-sen could not tolerate it, so he began to carry out the revolution. This is a long process, and it is necessary to sweep away tyranny through revolution. Now, the victory of the revolution has been twelve years. You have done a lot of work, but it is impossible to sweep away the tyranny left over from two thousand years in twelve years.
Mao: That's right, it will be left over for many years.
Montgomery: You have done a very good job.
Mao: We have done a little, not much, it will take several decades to a hundred years, for example, fifty to a hundred years. A century is not long. Your Britain took two or three centuries to develop.
Montgomery: What you have done in twelve years is already very impressive. All aspects are in action, and the people are proud of their motherland. In another fifty years, you should be very good.
Mao: It may be a little better. But I can't see communism. They (referring to the young people present) can see it.
Montgomery: How old is the Chairman this year?
Mao: Sixty-eight. How about you?
Montgomery: Seventy-four.
Mao: I am six years younger than you.
Montgomery: That's nothing. I had a very interesting conversation with Chairman Liu Shaoqi.
Mao: In Shanghai, I introduced Chairman Liu Shaoqi to you. You saw him this time.
Montgomery: Yes, Chairman Liu Shaoqi informed me to see him. He is the same age as Premier Zhou Enlai. His hair is all white, and he looks older than Premier Zhou Enlai. He is very smart and a thinker. Why does he seem older than Premier Zhou Enlai? Is it because his past life was more difficult?
Mao: Almost. Individual characteristics are different. Shaoqi has more white hair than I do.
Montgomery: Your hair is not very white.
Mao: Some of it is white.
Montgomery: Chairman Liu Shaoqi looks very dignified, with a head of white hair. I neither smoke nor drink.
Mao: I don't drink, I only smoke.
Montgomery: I would like to give you a box of British Three-Five cigarettes.
Mao: Thank you.
Montgomery: Now I would like to talk to the Chairman about the Three Principles. I have proposed these three principles separately before, and this time I am proposing the three principles as a package. For many years, I can say that I have been sitting in the front row observing international politics. I have participated in the work of Western defense organizations. I think the West has gotten itself into a quagmire, and Western political leaders seem unable to find a way out of this quagmire. I have come to the conclusion that the West completely lacks common sense on the issues of Germany and China.
Mao: Not the entire West, only the United States lacks common sense.
Montgomery: There are others.
Mao: Others are following the United States.
Montgomery: The people of the West are increasingly calling for a peaceful world. But unless all countries withdraw their armed forces to their own countries, there cannot be a peaceful world. Has the Chairman read my speech at Premier Zhou Enlai's banquet last night?
Mao: I have read it.
Montgomery: What does the Chairman think of my three principles proposed as a package?
Mao: Proposing them as a package is more powerful, better than proposing them separately, and the people of all countries can understand them better. There will be many people who oppose them, but more people will welcome them. Propose them many times, once, twice, three times, ten times, twenty times, and they will eventually be effective. Didn't you say you want to live to be a hundred years old? That's still more than twenty years. There is hope of seeing a solution before you go to see God. The three principles are proposed correctly and well.
Montgomery: I want to mobilize world public opinion. Not only mobilize the public opinion of the Eastern Bloc, but also mobilize the public opinion of non-aligned countries and Western countries. How to do it? After I leave China, I plan to go to Canada next week, and on October 6th, I plan to give a televised speech in Toronto. This broadcast can be rebroadcast by all television stations in Canada, and some radio stations in the United States will also rebroadcast it.
Mao: That's good.
Montgomery: Then, I will return to London and give another televised speech on the evening of October 16th. That is a regular Monday night broadcast program, with an audience of 15 million people. These two speeches will have an effect, but more needs to be done.
Mao: Speak whenever you have the opportunity.
Montgomery: If the Eastern Bloc expresses its attitude towards my three principles at that time, saying: "Yes, we agree, this is a very good idea." It would be very helpful if China and Moscow could make such a voice.
China has no troops abroad, but the Soviet Union does.
If Khrushchev could also come out and say: "As long as the United States, Britain, and France withdraw their troops from Europe and Germany, I will also withdraw my troops back to the Soviet Union." It would be even better if he said that too. He has never said that decisively.
Mao: He has said it.
Montgomery: I mean he hasn't said it "decisively."
Mao: He is in favor of one China, two Germanys, and troop withdrawal.
Montgomery: I once suggested that Marshal Chen Yi talk to Gromyko, hoping that the Soviet Union would support my three principles as loudly as China.
Mao: Are you going to take a trip to the Soviet Union?
Montgomery: I can't go now.
Mao: If not this year, then next year. If you go there to talk about the three principles, it will give them an opportunity to publicly support you.
Montgomery: I have this view: when you want to make something happen, never make the mistake of offending many people at once. I have already offended some people by proposing the three principles in China this time, and if I go to the Soviet Union, I will offend even more people, so I am not going. Please have Chen Yi and Gromyko speak in the East, and I will speak in Canada and London.
Mao: Did you tell Chen Yi?
Montgomery: I did.
Mao: That's fine.
Montgomery: I can promote this in the West. But, I don't want to play a big role in the East anymore. Moscow is in the East, so I don't want to go. I have a strong position in my own country, and if I travel too much in the communist East, then the British people will say, what is this guy doing, this will damage my position. If I want to promote this, I must maintain my position.
Mao: Your position will not be shaken. Your basic idea is to have peace.
Montgomery: The people will follow me. They will agree with my views, even though many people in the West disagree with your ideology.
Mao: If they disagree, they can just not believe it.
Montgomery: That's right, I advocate that we should not interfere in each other's internal affairs. When Western countries encounter problems, their approach is to divide a country in two. This is the case with Korea, Laos, and Indochina. They think that dividing a country in two will solve all the problems. I don't think so, I say that everyone should withdraw their troops and let the Koreans decide for themselves what they want and what they don't want.
Mao: That's right.
Montgomery: This is the only reasonable approach.
I am very familiar with Stalin. After World War II, when I went to Moscow to see Stalin, I said to him that I had never figured out what socialism is and what communism is. I asked him to explain the difference between the two to me. He said that socialism is from each according to his ability, to each according to his work, and communism is from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. I asked him again, then are you a communist country? He said, no, we are a socialist country, communism must have extremely abundant products for distribution, we are not that rich yet, we hope to be able to become a communist country one day. Is the situation in China also like this?
Mao: China is also like this, it is socialist, to each according to his work. This stage may take a very long time, half a century to a century.
Montgomery: Then why do you call your party the Communist Party, and not the Socialist Party?
Mao: Because communism is our ultimate goal.
Mao: It's hard to say, at least half a century to a century later. It will take a long historical period to complete the socialist stage.
Montgomery: Then your socialism is an extreme form of socialism, right?
Mao: There is no extreme form.
Montgomery: After World War II, we had a socialist government. The Labour Party would never say that their socialism is the same as yours.
Mao: It's different from ours.
Montgomery: Then yours is a more extreme form.
Mao: There are two kinds. Their kind is not socialism.
Montgomery: Is it right-wing?
Mao: It's not socialism. We have talked to our Labour Party friends, to Attlee, and said that theirs is not socialism. Ours is normal, it is the Soviet type, basically the same as the Soviet Union.
Montgomery: I don't think so. I think the Soviet revolution was a minority of people seizing power after shooting some necessary people, rather than being carried out from the bottom up on the basis of the broad masses of peasants.
Mao: You can't say that. The October Revolution led by Lenin was also a mass uprising, which first broke out in the capital and later spread to other cities. Workers and peasants were organized and participated in this revolution.
Montgomery: Today's conversation has been very interesting, but I think the Chairman must be very busy and has other things to do. Can I come back tomorrow night to talk?
Mao: I'm going somewhere else tomorrow night.
Montgomery: Today's conversation has taught me a lot. Now I want to think about it carefully, figure out these issues, and also start writing speeches and preparing articles to be published in the newspapers in the future.
Mao: Are you going to Guangzhou tomorrow?
Montgomery: I would rather stay here for another day, Guangdong is too hot and humid. I must get to Hong Kong on the 26th, because I have an appointment with the King and Queen of Nepal for dinner. I hope to spend a quiet day here tomorrow, without any arrangements, so that I can draft and rest. This trip has made me very tired.
Mao: You should rest well.

September 1961, Mao Zedong met with British Marshal Montgomery in Wuhan.

Information picture
In September 1961, Mao Zedong met with the famous British Marshal Montgomery in Wuhan.
In September 1961, Mao Zedong and Montgomery had an in-depth conversation.

Nuclear weapons are scary things, they won't be used.
(September 24, 1961)
Montgomery (hereinafter referred to as Montgomery): People are talking about nuclear weapons now, and there is a lot of debate. I also talked to Chairman Liu Shaoqi about China's nuclear policy in Beijing. What does the Chairman think about this issue?
Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): I am not interested in nuclear weapons. This thing will not be used. The more you build, the less likely a nuclear war will be. If there is a war, it will still be fought with conventional weapons. Fighting with conventional weapons can still talk about military art, what strategy, tactics, and commanders can temporarily change according to the situation. A war with nuclear weapons is just pressing buttons, and it will be over in a few moments.
Montgomery: Chairman Liu told me that because the United States, Britain, France, and the Soviet Union all have them, you also want to develop some.
Mao: Yes, we are preparing to develop some. I don't know when we will develop them. The United States has so many, it's ten fingers. Even if we develop them, it will only be one finger. This is a scary thing, it costs a lot of money, and it's useless.
Montgomery: I also think that in your arrangements for various undertakings, developing nuclear weapons is probably placed very far back.
Mao: That's right, we use very little money to conduct experiments. We don't have a strong economic foundation, and industry has only just begun to develop a little. The United States, Britain, France, and the Soviet Union have a strong industrial base.
This is part of Mao Zedong's conversation with British Marshal Montgomery.