Talk With Edgar Snow On Taiwan And Other Questions

Date: 1960-10-22
Source: en:FLP-Diplomacy
TALK WITH EDGAR SNOW ON TAIWAN
AND OTHER QUESTIONS*
{October 22, 1960)
Edgar Snow (hereinafter referred to as Snow): On the question of Taiwan,
Chairman, I wonder if you have read about a heated debate in the United
States between John F. Kennedy^”^ and Richard Nixon^”^ on the questions of
Mazu and Jinmen and American policy on the far east.
Chairman Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): I have read some.
Snow: The debate was so heated that the two names of Mazu and Jinmen
often appeared in the newspapers so someone made a joke about it, saying the
people had forgotten the two candidates' names, assuming they were called
Mazu and Jinmen instead of Kennedy and Nixon.
Mao: It is because the Americans are afraid of war that they use this
question for their election campaign. These two islands are very close to the
mainland and Kennedy makes use of this point to win votes.
Snow: Nevertheless, it shows there is a great difference of opinion among
the American public on this question. Usually people are indifferent about an
election campaign, but this question has aroused great interest, for many
Americans are against the current U.S. policy. So this is the real issue.
Mao: Nixon has his own idea, saying that these two islands must be
protected. He also wants to get more votes. This question has given life to the
American election campaign. Nixon has gone too far, as if the U.S. govern
ment had an obligation to protect the two islands. The U.S. State Department
says that it has no obligation to do so. Whether to protect or not depends on
the situation and is to be decided by the president under the circumstances at
the time. This is the statement Eisenhower'"^ made two years ago.
Snow: Someone asked this question: Under the American Constitution the
new president will not take office until the January following his election in
early November. If Kennedy is elected and China occupies Jinmen and Mazu
* These are excerpts from Mao Zedong's talk with Edgar Snow, an American writer
and a friend to China.
on November 6 what's to be done then?
Mao: They asked the question in this way?
Snow: Eisenhower remains president until next January.
Mao: We do not look at the two islands that way. We have made public
statements on the question, that is, let Chiang Kai-shek hold the two islands.
We will not intercept their supplies. We can even send supplements if they
do not have enough provisions. What we want is the whole Taiwan region.
Taiwan and the Penghu Islands, including Jinmen and Mazu are all China's
territory. As for the two islands, they are now in Chiang Kai-shek's hand; let
him hold them. It seems that the American presidential candidates are not clear
about this.
Snow: Quite possibly.
Mao: There isn't much to be debated on this question. We want not only
the two islands, Jinmen and Mazu, but Taiwan and all the Penghu Islands.
This question may annoy us for a long time. It has already been 11 years, and
it is quite possible it will drag on for twice that many years or even longer,
because the U.S. government is not willing to give up Taiwan. It does not want
to give it up, and we do not attack it, so we have had negotiations,^®' first in
Geneva, then in Warsaw. We shall not attack Taiwan while the U.S. is there.
We want to solve the issue through negotiations rather than force. The U.S.
government understands this. Nor shall we attack Jinmen and Mazu; we have
stated this openly. Therefore, there is no danger of war and the United States
may keep its occupation of Taiwan with its mind at ease. Eleven years have
gone. After another 11 years and still another—that will be 33 years
maybe
in the 32nd year the United States will give up Taiwan.
Snow: I think the Chairman wants to wait until Chiang Kai-shek's soldiers
have become three-legged men.
Mao: It is mainly a question of the U.S. government, not of Chiang
Kai-shek or others. If Chiang Kai-shek's men become three-legged, there will
still be men with two legs in Taiwan. It is easy to find human beings.
Snow: Is the Chairman serious in thinking it will take 11 years or 22 years
for the United States to change its stand? The American situation develops
very fast and it will change very fast too. Of course the change has something
to do with outside factors. All in all, there will be changes in the situation.
Mao: Maybe. In your article you mentioned one point: that we were more
interested in becoming a member of the United Nations than in having the
United States recognize China; as if we were more interested in getting into
the United Nations. I do not see it that way and it cannot be said so. We
instead of Chiang Kai-shek should represent China in the United Nations. It
should have been that way long ago, but the U.S. government organized the
majority of countries to block our entry. It does not mean there is no good in
this. We are not eager to get into the United Nations. Some other countries
are eager to have us admitted into the United Nations of course, excluding the
United States. Now Britain has no choice but to follow the United States, but
its original intention may be the one you talked about, that is, we shall be
lawless if we are kept outside the United Nations, it would be better if we were
bound by United Nations' rules. Quite a few countries hope China will observe
the rules. You know we were guerrillas and accustomed to being unrestrained.
It is hard to obey so many rules, isn't it? We shall not suffer any loss if we
do not get into the United Nations. What are the good points if we get into
the United Nations? Of course, there are some, but not necessarily many.
Some countries strive for membership in the United Nations and we don't
quite understand their mood. Our country is a united nation. One of our
provinces is bigger than some countries.
Snow: I often say so.
Mao: They try to impose an economic blockade against us, just like what
the Kuomintang did in the past. We were very grateful to the Kuomintang for
setting up an economic blockade against us and making us find a way out by
going in for production in our bases. The Kuomintang provided us with pay
in 1937, 1938 and 1939, but started blockading us in 1940. We wanted to
thank them for forcing us to go in for production and not rely on them. Now
the United States has also imposed a blockade on us, which has some good
aspects.
Snow: I remember that in 1939 the Chairman told me, "We thank the
Kuomintang in eight respects. First, because the Communist Party developed
too slowly, so the Kuomintang carried out an economic blockade to help us
develop faster." Another respect was since the Communist troops had very
few new recruits, Chiang Kai-shek put more people in prison, and so on and
so forth. Later these points of the Chairman were proved correct. In fact, the
more the people are oppressed, the faster the people's strength develops.
Mao: That is true.
Snow: In one of your articles you said that the law of imperialism is to
oppose colonized people's efforts for freedom, to fail, to oppose again, to fail
again. The blockade against China was certain to fail, but they have never
given up this way of thinking. Now they are brooding over an economic
blockade against Cuba. I think it will be a failure, too. It is very hard to
comprehend what they want to gain from it. Anyway, it seems that they will
impose an embargo against Cuba.

Mao: Now it is a partial embargo. It has no big influence on Cuba. It is
possible that they will expand to a total embargo, which will have a bigger
impact, but it is impossible for them to block Cuba to death. Cuba will find
a way. The situation for Cuba today is after all better than our situation in
Yan'an.
Snow: I want to ask another question. In ten to twenty years you will
achieve your goal of industrialization. By then the world's economic founda
tion will have seen tremendous changes, as nuclear power and electronics are
applied extensively. Of course by then, maybe earlier, China will have nuclear
power. Some Americans think it will be far in the future when China develops
nuclear power. However, they fear China will use it irresponsibly once it has
the atom bomb.
Mao: No, we won't. How can an atom bomb be used irresponsibly? That
won't do. We can't use it irresponsibly if we have it. To use it irresponsibly
means committing a crime.
Snow: Even though there is no peace treaty or agreement between China
and the U.S., and some Americans think that the United States and China
are, in fact, in a semiwar situation, world peace every day relies on China's
sense of responsibility, which is first for the Chinese people and then for the
whole world, of which China is a part. Do you agree with me on this?
Mao: Right. We hold our responsibility for world peace no matter
whether the United States recognizes us or not and no matter whether we are
admitted by the United Nations or not. We shall not act in a lawless way like
the Monkey King, who created havoc in the heavens, because we are not in
the United Nations. We want to maintain world peace with no world war. We
hold that problems between countries should not be settled by means of war.
Anyway, the maintenance of world peace is not only China's responsibility,
but also the United States'. Resolution of the Taiwan question is China's
internal affair, which we always stick to. We shall not attack, even though it
is so. Will we attack when the Americans are there? No, we won't. Will we
attack for certain after the Americans leave? Not necessarily. We want to solve
the Taiwan question by peaceful means. Many places in China were resolved
by peaceful means. Beijing was liberated peacefully, so were Hunan, Yunnan
and Xinjiang. There is hearsay outside China that the Chinese Communist
Party, among the communist parties in various countries, is especially naughty,
disobedient, unreasonable and reckless. You have been in China for a few
months and those words cannot fully be trusted. You said that some outsiders
say China is like a big barracks and a big prison. Indeed, it was so in Chiang
Kai-shek's China. Then Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai were indeed barracks.
Since liberation China, through reform and education, has become quite
different from what it was.
Snow: I can surely say that my impression is that there are big differences
now.
(From the verbatim record)