Montgomery: Please tell me your views on the current world situation.

Mao Zedong: The international situation is very good, nothing bad; it’s nothing more than the whole world opposing the Soviet Union and China.

Montgomery: That is very bad.

Mao: This is manufactured by the United States, not bad.

Montgomery: But it is very bad.

Mao: Not bad, it’s good. If they weren’t opposing us, we’d be just like Eisenhower and Dulles [1], so it stands to reason they should oppose us. They do this intermittently. Last year they opposed China, and this year they oppose the Soviet Union.

Montgomery: That was done by the United States, not by Britain.

Mao: Mainly by the United States, but it also instigates its running dogs in various countries to do the same.

Montgomery: Therefore I believe the situation is bad.

Mao: The current situation, as I see it, is neither a breaking out of a hot war nor peaceful coexistence, but a third type: Cold War coexistence.

Montgomery: The difficulty lies right there. It is difficult to coexist amid a Cold War.

Mao: We must solve this problem.

Montgomery: We must find a solution.

Mao: But we should be prepared on two fronts. One is to continue the Cold War, and the other is to turn the Cold War into peaceful coexistence. So we welcome the work you are doing toward this transformation.

Montgomery: Yes. I believe we cannot go on living in such a tense situation. Our children are growing up in a Cold War, and that is bad for them. So we must transform this situation into peaceful coexistence. I don’t want to see my children grow up thinking the world must always be in a state of tension.

Mao: This requires some analysis. The Cold War has a good side and a bad side. The bad side is that it could turn into a hot war.

Montgomery: That is possible.

Mao: The good side is that it could turn into peaceful coexistence.

Montgomery: That cannot be called a good aspect of the Cold War.

Mao: We say there is a good side, because by creating tension, the United States ends up creating more opponents—for example, in South Korea, Japan, Turkey, and Latin America, many countries are all opposed to American control. This is brought about by the Americans themselves.

Montgomery: I am not sure the United States has created its own opponents within the bloc of Western nations. That has not happened in the Western bloc, though I wish it would.

Mao: I am not referring to Europe; Europe is relatively calm. I am referring to South Korea, South Vietnam, Japan, Turkey, Cuba, and other Latin American countries, as well as Africa. In Africa, we cannot solely blame the United States; the European colonialists must be blamed first. But the United States wants to replace the European colonialists there. So I say the good side lies in making these countries oppose U.S. imperialism. This is shaking the very foundation of the entire capitalist world.

Montgomery: The leader of the Western world is the United States, yet now the Western countries are afraid of being led into war by this leader—that is a very strange phenomenon. Because in the last two world wars, the United States waited until the war was halfway through before joining in. But now the Western countries are afraid the United States will drag them into war. We must change a situation like this: right now, the leader of the Western bloc simply cannot get along with the two largest countries of the Eastern bloc. Because of this, America’s leadership in the West is being questioned.

Mao: As long as America’s leadership is not weakened, and unless Britain and France strengthen it, it will be impossible to change the situation.

Montgomery: I am certain such a situation is bound to arise.

Mao: You are British, you have traveled in France, you have been to the Soviet Union twice, and now you have come to China. Is it possible that Britain, France, the Soviet Union, and China could reach agreement on certain major international issues?

Montgomery: Yes, I think it is possible. But because of America’s leadership, Britain and France would be afraid to do so.

Mao: Take it slowly. We hope your country will grow stronger, we hope France will grow stronger, and we hope your voice will be louder. Then things would be easier, and the United States, West Germany, and Japan could be somewhat restrained. The threat to you and France comes from the United States and West Germany, and also from Japan in the Far East. The threat to us also comes from these three countries. We do not feel that Britain poses a threat to us, nor do we think France poses a threat to us. The threat to us mainly comes from the United States and Japan.

Montgomery: I think it is very important, in this extremely complicated situation, to know which step we should take first. I think the first step should be the withdrawal of all foreign troops from the territories of other countries, but that will take time.

Mao: It is mainly U.S. forces, part in Europe and part in Asia. Britain only has four divisions in Germany.

Montgomery: Only three.

Mao: Yet the United States has 1.5 million troops abroad and 250 military bases, including in West Germany, Britain, Turkey, and also in Morocco. In the East, the United States has military bases in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the Philippines; it also has military personnel in South Vietnam, and air bases in Thailand and Pakistan.

Montgomery: The main issue is that everyone should return to their own countries. If we can do two things, we might ease the tension: first, end the military occupation of Europe; second, resolve the Taiwan issue. Problems can only be tackled one at a time.

Mao: But the people are already acting. The peoples of South Korea, Japan, and Turkey are all staging demonstrations. A coup just happened in Turkey [2]; you can’t say that was stirred up by the Communists.

Montgomery: There is no benefit in trying to do everything at once. I am a soldier, and I understand that. You are also a soldier, so you should understand that too.

Mao: You have 35 years of military service, longer than I do—I have only 25 years.

Montgomery: I have 52 years.

Mao: Yet I am still the Chairman of the Communist Party’s Military Commission.

Montgomery: That’s very good. I have read your military works, and they are very well written.

Mao: I don’t think there’s anything particularly good about them. I learned them from your side. You have studied Clausewitz [3], and so have I. He said war is the continuation of politics by other means.

Montgomery: I have also studied Genghis Khan [4], who emphasized mobility.

Mao: Have you not read our "Sun Tzu’s Art of War" from two thousand years ago? There are quite a few good things in it.

Montgomery: Does it mention more military principles?

Mao: Some very good principles, altogether in 13 chapters.

Montgomery: We should come back from two thousand years ago to the present. When I return to London, will you agree that I mobilize world opinion on the two major issues: ending the military occupation of Europe and resolving the Taiwan question? Do you agree to start with these two issues first?

Mao: Good, I agree.

Montgomery: I can put the United States in a very difficult position.

Mao: Here there are also two paths: one is for you to do just that; the other is that the Americans are very arrogant and will not yield an inch of territory.

Montgomery: I can put the United States in a very difficult position.

Mao: Possibly.

Montgomery: I am very familiar with the Americans and have many friends in the United States; their views are the same as mine.

Mao: Our policy is also to put the United States in a difficult position.

Montgomery: In the United States, many of my friends will agree with my opinion. Many powerful figures in the press will also agree with me. In the past, I never tried to make things difficult for the United States, but now I think I will.

Mao: The United States is very passive now. There are hundreds of nooses binding it; it has 250 military bases abroad.

Montgomery: I think we should speak some blunt truths to the Americans.

Mao: Half of America’s military forces are tied up in its bases. It has three million troops, and 1.5 million of them are overseas, including in your Britain and in China’s Taiwan. We have not a single military base abroad, not a single soldier.

Montgomery: Does the Chairman agree with the principles I discussed with Zhou Enlai—the ones the United States should abide by? Namely: first, the United States should recognize that Taiwan is part of China; second, the United States should withdraw from Taiwan; third, the Taiwan issue should be resolved through negotiations between China and Chiang Kai-shek.

Mao: I know, and I agree. We do not want to settle the issue with the United States by war. With Chiang Kai-shek it is different, but if he does not use force, we will not use force either.

Montgomery: I agree on this point.

Mao: The United States declares that it is willing to resolve international issues through peaceful negotiations, not using force or threats of force. Whether its words are reliable is still an assumption, and we must wait and see. But Chiang Kai-shek has not made such a statement; he opposes negotiations with the Chinese Communist Party, whereas we have long indicated that we are willing to resolve the issue with Chiang Kai-shek through negotiations.

Montgomery: Do you know Chiang Kai-shek?

Mao: He is my old friend; how could I not know him? Chiang Kai-shek came to power only with our help. Before he came to power, we dealt with Sun Yat-sen.

Montgomery: Did Chairman Mao cooperate with Chiang Kai-shek during the War of Resistance against Japan?

Mao: We cooperated for eight years during the anti-Japanese war. Later, he teamed up with the United States to fight us. In the past, your Britain had an alliance with Japan to deal with Tsarist Russia. At that time, the Far East was your domain, and China was mainly your sphere of influence. When did this situation change? It began to change during the First World War. After the Second World War, you could no longer control Japan; it came under America’s control. Britain also made a gentlemen’s agreement with the United States, handing China over to America. This was told to me by Lady Cripps when she came to Yan’an. She said that on the China issue, Britain no longer had any say. From then on, the Chinese people’s hatred toward Britain was dispelled, and their hatred turned toward the United States. After Japan’s surrender, there were 90,000 American troops in China.

Montgomery: But the hatred in the past was directed at Britain.

Mao: In the past, it was directed at Britain and also at Japan.

Montgomery: We were the worst of the foreign devils.

Mao: In the past there was also Japan; later it became Japan and the United States.

Montgomery: Do you oppose the United States because it sent General Marshall [5] to China to interfere in China’s internal affairs?

Mao: It was with America’s help that Japan occupied more than half of China. Japan had no iron, no oil, and very little coal. All three of these things were continuously sent by the United States to Japan. But while the United States propped up one force, it ended up with Pearl Harbor [6].

Montgomery: Are you no longer afraid of Japan today?

Mao: Still a bit, because the United States is supporting Japan’s militarism.

Montgomery: Japan is a highly organized industrial country.

Mao: The main U.S. base in the East is Japan. On the 19th of this month, Japan forcibly passed the military alliance treaty [7] with the United States in its Diet.

Montgomery: Does Japan have any bad intentions toward China?

Mao: I think it does.

Montgomery: What kind of intentions?

Mao: Of course, it is mainly about the United States. The Japan-U.S. treaty includes China’s coastal areas within the scope of the Far East as Japan interprets it. I have read Eden’s [8] memoirs. He wrote about the Suez issue, the Egypt issue, and the Iran issue, and also mentioned the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization [9]. He said that when the United States was organizing SEATO, Britain wanted India to join, but the United States firmly opposed it.

The United States said that if Britain wanted India to participate, then the United States would want Chiang Kai-shek and Japan to participate.

Mongomery: India will not participate.

Mao Zedong: At that time, Eden wanted India to participate in order to counter the United States.

In his memoirs, Eden said he could not understand how Chiang Kai-shek could be mentioned in the same breath as Nehru.〔11〕

Mongomery: I have an interesting question to ask the Chairman: It will probably take China about fifty years to get everything more or less in order, with the people's livelihood greatly improved, and the problems of housing, education, and construction all solved. By that time, what do you see as the future of China?

Mao Zedong: In your view, we will be committing aggression by then, is that right?

Mongomery: No, at least I hope you will not.

Mao Zedong: You are afraid we will commit aggression.

Mongomery: I think that when a country becomes powerful, it should be very careful not to engage in aggression.

Just look at the United States and you will see.

Mao Zedong: Yes, quite right. You can also look at Britain.

Before the First World War, the most powerful country in the world was the British Empire.

As for the United States one hundred and eighty years ago, it was merely a colony of Britain.

Mongomery: The lesson of history is that when a country becomes very powerful, it tends to commit aggression.

Mao Zedong: If you go out to commit aggression, you will be beaten back.

After all, was the North America of Washington〔12〕 stronger, or was the British Empire stronger?

Yet Washington, with a few worn-out guns, fought for eight years and drove the British Empire back.

Mongomery: The American Revolution was a good thing.

Revolution is often a good thing.

If it were not for the American Revolution, Canada would not be what it is today.

The Chinese Revolution was also good.

So revolution can be a good thing.

Mao Zedong: You are very open-minded!

Mongomery: I am a military man.

Mao Zedong: Foreign lands are places where foreign people live; others cannot go there, and have no right and no reason to forcibly squeeze their way in.

Mongomery: I agree.

Mao Zedong: If they do go, they will be driven out. This is the lesson of history.

Mongomery: What will China's destiny be fifty years from now?

By then, China will be the most powerful country in the world.

Mao Zedong: That is not necessarily so.

Fifty years from now, China's destiny will still be 9.6 million square kilometers.

China has no God; it has a Jade Emperor.

Fifty years from now, the domain under the Jade Emperor's jurisdiction will still be 9.6 million square kilometers.

If we occupy a single inch of other people's land, we are aggressors.

In fact, we are the victims of aggression; the United States is still occupying our Taiwan.

However, the United Nations has conferred upon us the title of "aggressor."

You are speaking with an "aggressor," do you know that? Sitting opposite you is an "aggressor," are you afraid?

Mongomery: Before the revolution, you once suffered aggression from us.

Mao Zedong: That was in the past; now such hatred is gone, only a small tail remains.

If your government would just improve its attitude a little, we could establish formal diplomatic relations and exchange ambassadors.

Mongomery: I hope so.

Mao Zedong: If Britain, France, the Soviet Union, and China could become somewhat closer, things would be better.

Mongomery: I would like to see that situation.

Mao Zedong: Why don't you improve your attitude just a little?

The basic issue has already been resolved: you have no formal diplomatic relations with Taiwan and agree that the Beijing government represents China. You have already done the basic things.

Only a few individual issues remain, namely: First, in the United Nations, when the issue of Chiang Kai-shek's representation is discussed, you stand together with the United States; second, you still have a consulate in Taiwan; third, your government is relatively pro-Taiwan and distant from China, and many Chiang Kai-shek people from Taiwan come to London and are received by your Foreign Office.

In addition, on the issue of Tibet, you also stand together with the United States.

A rebel from Tibet went to London and was received by the head of your Foreign Office.

Mongomery: I did not know that.

Tibet is within China.

Mao Zedong: There are many things your Foreign Office does that you do not know about.

So, in my view, we cannot lightly grant formal representation to Britain; we cannot formally exchange ambassadors with Britain.

Mongomery: This requires time and patience.

Mao Zedong: As long as you slightly improve your attitude, our relations will improve.

Mongomery: I find this issue you mentioned about Britain, France, Russia, and China very interesting.

I am well acquainted with Macmillan〔13〕 and de Gaulle.〔14〕

De Gaulle has asked me to go to Paris next month to meet with him, and I will convey this point to him.

De Gaulle is a very good man.

Mao Zedong: We have two impressions of de Gaulle: first, he is not bad; second, he has shortcomings.

Mongomery: Everyone has shortcomings.

Mao Zedong: We say he is not bad because he has the courage to assert independence from the United States.

He does not entirely obey the American baton; he does not allow the United States to establish air bases in France; his army is also under his command, not under American command.

Mongomery: The navy is the same.

Mao Zedong: The French fleet in the Mediterranean was originally under American command, but now he has also taken back command authority.

We greatly appreciate these points.

On the other hand, his shortcomings are very great.

He has committed half of his army to fight a war in Algeria, which ties his hands and feet.

Mongomery: De Gaulle would say that Algeria is a province of France, and in legal terms, de Gaulle is right to say so.

Mao Zedong: The Algerians do not agree; they demand independence.

Mongomery: That is where the trouble lies, so it must be resolved.

But legally, Algeria is a province of France.

This issue must be resolved.

Mao Zedong: The Algeria issue should be resolved.

The Algerians told me that France has 900,000 troops in Algeria. I think that figure is not so high; it is probably five to six hundred thousand.

Every day, every month, every year, France is spending a huge amount of military expenses in Algeria, which is very disadvantageous for France.

Mongomery: This issue must be resolved.

Mao Zedong: It must be resolved.

The French army cannot fight. In Vietnam, they could not defeat Ho Chi Minh's forces either.〔15〕

Mongomery: This issue must be resolved.

Mao Zedong: They have been fighting in Algeria for six years.

At the beginning, Algeria had only 3,000 guerrillas; now they have developed into an army of 100,000.

Mongomery: This issue must be resolved.

De Gaulle's position depends to a large extent on whether he can resolve this issue. If he cannot, he may be forced to step down.

Mao Zedong: It will also determine whether he can have equal rights with Britain and the United States in Europe.

Mongomery: He has already achieved that.

He once insisted on this point.

Mao Zedong: Not entirely. The Americans do not agree.

We were very pleased to see that when Macmillan visited France and de Gaulle visited London, they were accorded grand receptions.

We hope that your two countries can cooperate.

Mongomery: Macmillan may be the best political leader in the Western world.

Mao Zedong: Possibly.

At least he is better than Eisenhower.

Mongomery: Who could be better than him? I mean in the Western world.

Mao Zedong: We hope that Britain can become stronger.

Mongomery: In the Western group, he is the most intelligent and most honest person.

Mao Zedong: One can see that he is quite methodical.

Mongomery: My criterion for measuring a political leader is whether he will sacrifice his principles for the sake of position.

Do you agree with this criterion? If a leader sacrifices his principles to attain high position, he is not a good person.

Mao Zedong: My opinion is this: a leader should be the spokesman for the vast majority of people.

Mongomery: But he must also not sacrifice his principles!

Mao Zedong: This is the principle—he should represent the people's wishes.

Mongomery: He must lead the people to do what is most beneficial.

Mao Zedong: He must act for the benefit of the people.

Mongomery: But the people do not always know what is most beneficial for them; the leader must lead them to do things that benefit them.

Mao Zedong: The people understand matters.

Ultimately, it is the people who decide issues.

It was precisely because Cromwell〔16〕 represented the people that the king was forced to make concessions.

Mongomery: Cromwell represented only a minority.

Mao Zedong: He represented the bourgeoisie opposing the feudal lords.

Mongomery: But he failed.

After Cromwell died and was buried, some years later, his body was dug up, his head cut off, and his head was hung on the roof of the Parliament building for several years.

Mao Zedong: But historically, Cromwell had prestige.

Mongomery: If it were not for Cromwell, England would not be what it is today.

Mao Zedong: Jesus was crucified and nailed to death, but Jesus has prestige.

Mongomery: That was after his death; during his lifetime, he did not have many followers.

Mao Zedong: Washington represented the American people.

Mongomery: Yet he was assassinated.〔17〕

Mao Zedong: Gandhi〔18〕 of India was also assassinated, but he represented the Indian people.

Printed based on *Selected Diplomatic Writings of Mao Zedong* published by the Central Literature Publishing House and World Affairs Press in 1994. The original title is "Talking on the International Situation with Marshal Montgomery."

Notes
〔1〕 Montgomery (1887-1976), British Field Marshal. During World War II, he was one of the Allied commanders. Later, he served as Chief of the Imperial General Staff and Deputy Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.
〔2〕 Eisenhower was the President of the United States at the time. Dulles served as Secretary of State from 1953 to 1959.
〔3〕 In 1950, during Turkey's free elections, the Democratic Party led by Menderes won and took power. After taking office, Menderes reneged on his promises, abandoned democracy and the constitution, and suppressed the opposition. On May 27, 1960, a group of junior officers in the Turkish armed forces staged a military coup, commanding troops in Istanbul and Ankara to overthrow the Menderes government. Menderes was sentenced to death.
〔4〕 Clausewitz (1780-1831), German military theorist, principal work *On War*.
〔5〕 Genghis Khan (1162-1227), founder of the Yuan Dynasty, given name Temüjin, military commander and statesman.
〔6〕 Marshall (1880-1959), American Democrat, former Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense. In December 1945, he was sent by the U.S. President as a special envoy to China, participating in Nationalist-Communist negotiations under the guise of "mediation" and supporting the Nationalist government in launching civil war. In August 1946, he declared the "mediation" a failure and soon returned to the United States.
〔7〕 On December 8, 1941, without a declaration of war, Japan launched a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, the largest U.S. sea and air base in the Pacific, damaging or sinking 19 warships and destroying over 200 aircraft. The U.S. Pacific Fleet suffered a devastating loss. That same day, the U.S. declared war on Japan, and the Pacific War began.
〔8〕 Refers to the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between Japan and the United States. See note 〔3〕, p. 93 of this volume.
〔9〕 Eden (1897-1977), British Conservative, former Prime Minister and diplomat.
〔10〕 Southeast Asia Treaty Organization. See note 〔2〕, p. 67 of this volume.
〔11〕 Nehru was the Prime Minister of India at the time.
〔12〕 Washington (1732-1799), the first President of the United States.

After the American War of Independence broke out in 1775, he served as Commander-in-Chief of the Continental Army, reorganizing and training the poorly armed and loosely organized local militias into a regular army capable of confronting the British forces head-on, and led the United States to victory in the War of Independence.




[13] Macmillan (1894–1986), a British Conservative, was then Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.




[14] De Gaulle (1890–1970) was then President of France.




[15] Ho Chi Minh was then Chairman of the Central Committee of the Vietnam Workers’ Party and President of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.




He once led the Vietnamese people in the war of resistance against France for national salvation.




[16] Cromwell (1599–1658) was the principal military and political leader during the English bourgeois revolution of the 17th century, the leader of the Independents, and a representative figure of the emerging bourgeois-gentry group.




He led his army to victory over the royal forces and proclaimed the republic in 1649.




In 1653 he assumed the title of “Lord Protector” and established a military dictatorship.




[17] Here Montgomery’s memory is in error. Washington died of illness at his home, Mount Vernon, on December 14, 1799.




[18] Gandhi (1869–1948), leader of India’s national independence movement, was once elected President of the Indian National Congress.




He long led the struggle against British colonial rule and for India’s independence, and was assassinated on January 30, 1948.