A Group of Conversations on
*Dream of the Red Chamber*
(1959–1973)

In *Dream of the Red Chamber*[1] there is a passage that goes:

"Mean huts and empty halls
Where emblems of nobility once hung;
Withered grass and withered poplars,
Where once were halls for song and dance.
Cobwebs fill the carved rafters,
And green gauze now drapes the lattice windows."[2]

This passage illustrates the rise and fall of social relations in feudal society, the disintegration and collapse of families. In *Dream of the Red Chamber*, one can see the constant fracturing of the patriarchal system. Jia Lian is Jia She's son, yet he does not listen to Jia She. Lady Wang co-opts Xifeng, but Xifeng employs every means to amass her own private fortune. The highest head of the Rongguo House is the Lady Dowager, yet Jia She and Jia Zheng each have their own calculations.

[1] *Dream of the Red Chamber*, a full-length novel, was written during the Qianlong period of the Qing Dynasty. The first eighty chapters were written by Cao Xueqin; it is generally believed that the last forty chapters were completed by Gao E.
[2] See *Dream of the Red Chamber*, Chapter 1: "Zhen Shiyin in a Dream Sees the Jade of Spiritual Understanding, Jia Yucun Finds a Soulmate Amid Wind and Dust."

II
A Group of Conversations on *Dream of the Red Chamber*

*Dream of the Red Chamber* should be read not only as a novel but also as a work of history. What it writes is a very meticulous, very detailed social history. The book depicts several hundred people—three or four hundred—of whom only thirty-three belong to the ruling class, roughly one-tenth; all the rest are the oppressed. Many are sacrificed, many die, such as Yuanyang, Second Sister You, Third Sister You, Siqi, Jinchuaner, Qingwen, Qin Keqing and one of her maids. Qin Keqing actually committed suicide, though it is not apparent in the book. Jia Baoyu feels sympathy for all these people. Have you read *The Plum in the Golden Vase*?[2] That book portrays the true social history of the Song Dynasty, exposes feudal rule, reveals the contradictions between the rulers and the oppressed, and parts of it are also written in great detail. *The Plum in the Golden Vase* is the ancestor of *Dream of the Red Chamber*; without *The Plum in the Golden Vase*, *Dream of the Red Chamber* could not have been written. However, the author of *The Plum in the Golden Vase* did not respect women, whereas *Dream of the Red Chamber* and *Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio*[3] do respect women.

IV
What era was the seventeenth century? It was the late Ming Dynasty and the early Qing Dynasty in China. Another century later, by the first half of the eighteenth century, it was the Qianlong Era[4] of the Qing Dynasty. Cao Xueqin,[1] the author of *Dream of the Red Chamber*, lived precisely in that era—the era that produced novelistic characters like Jia Baoyu, who were dissatisfied with the feudal system. During the Qianlong period, China already had the sprouting of some capitalist relations of production, but it was still a feudal society. This was the social background that produced that group of novelistic characters in the Grand View Garden.

V
Some novels, such as *Exposure of the Official World*,[1] exclusively write about darkness; Lu Xun[2] called them novels of condemnation. Works that only expose darkness do not appeal to readers; they are not as beloved as *Dream of the Red Chamber* and *Journey to the West*.[3] *The Plum in the Golden Vase* did not become widely circulated, not only because of its obscenity, but mainly because it only exposes, only writes about darkness—though well written, people do not enjoy reading it. *Dream of the Red Chamber* is different: it offers a certain sense of hope.

VI
I have read *Dream of the Red Chamber* at least five times. I read it as history. At first, I read it as a story; later, I read it as history. No one pays much attention to the fourth chapter of *Dream of the Red Chamber*, which is the general outline, as well as "Leng Zixing Describes the Rongguo Mansion,"[4] and "The Won-Done Song" with its annotations.[5] The fourth chapter, "A Hulun Temple Arbiter Settles a Hulun Case by a Stroke of Luck," discusses the Handguard’s Memo and mentions the four great families:
"The Jia are no mere veneer—
Their halls of white marble, their stables of gold.
The Afang Palace, three hundred miles in span,
Cannot house all the members of the Jinling Shi.
The East Sea lacks beds of white jade,
The Dragon King invites the Jinling Wang.
Snow in abundance falls in a prosperous year,
Pearls like earth, and gold like iron."
*Dream of the Red Chamber* depicts the four great families; class struggle is fierce, involving scores of lives. The rulers number more than twenty (some have calculated thirty-three); the rest are all slaves, over three hundred of them—Yuanyang, Siqi, Second Sister You, Third Sister You, and so on. If history is not interpreted through the lens of class struggle, it cannot be coherently explained. *Dream of the Red Chamber* was written over two hundred years ago, yet redology scholars have still not fully clarified it, which shows the difficulty of the issues. There are experts like Yu Pingbo and Wang Kunlun.[1] He Qifang also wrote a preface;[2] then came Wu Shichang.[3] This is the new redology—the old redology aside. Cai Yuanpei’s views on *Dream of the Red Chamber* were incorrect, while Hu Shi’s approach is somewhat more valid.[4]

VII
In *Dream of the Red Chamber*, Cao Xueqin still wished to mend the heavens—to repair the heavens of the feudal system—yet what the novel portrays is the decline of the feudal family. This can be said to be a contradiction between Cao Xueqin’s worldview and his creative work. Cao Xueqin’s family fell into ruin in the hands of the Yongzheng Emperor.[1]

VIII
Comrade Xu Shiyou,[2] have you read *Dream of the Red Chamber* now? You only have the right to speak after you've read it five times. He[3] there concealed the true events and expressed them in the language of fiction, which is why two characters are named Zhen Shiyin and Jia Yucun. The true events could not be spoken of openly; they are political struggles. The romantic entanglements serve to cover this up. In the fourth chapter, there is a "Handguard’s Memo," which says:
"The Jia are no mere veneer—
Their halls of white marble, their stables of gold.
The Afang Palace, three hundred miles in span,
Cannot house all the members of the Jinling Shi.
The East Sea lacks beds of white jade,
The Dragon King invites the Jinling Wang.
Snow in abundance falls in a prosperous year,
Pearls like earth, and gold like iron."
Among ancient Chinese novels, this is the best-written one, the very best. It has created a great wealth of literary language.

[1] Yongzheng, the Qing Shizong, Aisin Gioro Yinzhen (1678-1738), reigned from 1722 to 1735; his era name was Yongzheng.
[2] Xu Shiyou (1906-1985), a native of Xujiawa, Macheng, Hubei (now part of Xin County, Henan). At the time, he served as Deputy Minister of National Defense and Commander of the Nanjing Military Region of the People's Liberation Army. The day after Mao Zedong spoke with him, he was reassigned as Commander of the Guangzhou Military Region.
[3] Referring to Cao Xueqin, the author of *Dream of the Red Chamber*.

Mao Zedong in 1959.

In 1960, Mao Zedong was editing the fourth volume of the *Selected Works of Mao Zedong*.