Conversation with Wu Zhipu [1] and Others
(June 22, 1959)

Industry is all about the problem of overall balance. You can’t push this while abandoning that. For instance, to make steel you need iron; to make iron you need coke; and for coke, you still have to consider what kind of coke it is. The current specifications for this kind of iron cannot last; it can only be a transitional phase. A sulfur content of 0.2 won’t do; 0.1 should be considered substandard. We must gradually achieve, say, only 0.05, 0.06, 0.07, or 0.08.
Next year, steel output will likely have a "saddle-shaped" pattern. By so-called saddle-shaped, I mean it will still increase, not that it won’t increase. This year, 30 million tons wouldn’t work, so it went to 20 million; 20 million wouldn’t work, so it went to Shanghai’s 16.5 million; now it’s 13 million. If we achieve that, or slightly exceed it, then how much will we produce next year? Next year we might only produce 17 million tons, which wouldn’t even reach this year’s National People’s Congress target. It’s also possible that this year we produce 13 million tons, and next year we add 5 million tons—carrying out one year’s target over two years. The Second Five-Year Plan still has two years left. The year after next, we could produce another 4 million tons, making it 22 million tons. In another year, 26 million tons, and we’ll surpass Britain. We must improve quality a bit. Some provinces—Henan and Anhui, for instance—are generally industrially underdeveloped, but now they’re already moving very fast. If it’s too fast, I think it won’t be solidly consolidated.
[Redacted]: Industry is even more passive than agriculture. The stall we’ve set up is very large, and as a result, neither the planned nor the unplanned is working.
Mao: Unplanned projects are not allowed. Regardless of county-level industries or any other industries, all must be incorporated into the plan.

Study political economy, the law of value, exchange of equal value, and socialist distribution according to labor. Without this storm, no one would say they’ll go study. Yan Xishan had a slogan called the "doctrine of distribution according to labor." He was deceiving people, but we can refer to it and make use of it.
Mao Zedong: Complete Works, Volume 42
When it comes to truly engaging in industry, for the entire Party Central Committee and the localities, it began with last year’s Beidaihe Conference. This is not about you (the note-taker records: possibly referring to Yang Weiping)—you’ve been at it for many years. Nor is it about the industrial departments, the three commissions, and various ministries. The Secretariat’s grasp of this matter, and the Central Committee’s grasp of this matter, only began in August last year. I’m afraid it was probably the same for all provinces. The great push for steel dealt a blow. Agriculture was taken up a bit earlier, but there’s still much about the problems within agriculture that we don’t understand.

Wu: Last year was hugely beneficial for agriculture. Bumping into things brought out a lot of experience. The appropriate close planting has been widely proven, but planting too densely was unsuccessful. Also, appropriate fertilization and appropriate watering. It’s now been proven that deep plowing only needs to be about one chi or so—just a shovel about one chi and one or two inches deep, one shovel-full, is enough. Fertilizer isn’t like what was said before—the more the better. Too much can’t be absorbed. You don’t need fifty thousand or a hundred thousand jin of fertilizer; with over ten thousand or twenty thousand jin of coarse fertilizer, plus a little fine fertilizer, you can achieve high yields.
Mao: It’s just like people eating—eat too much and they die. The main thing for fertilizer is raising pigs. Can we achieve one pig per mu of land in the future?
Wu: By the Second Five-Year Plan period, there’s hope for one pig per mu. This year, pigs could reach 30 million; we have over two million sows.
[Redacted]: Feeding techniques have truly improved.
Mao: How much grain was produced the year before last, last year, and this year? I keep asking you all.
Wu: The year before last it was 25 billion jin. Last year we reported 70.2 billion jin—that was inflated. The actual figure was only between 45 billion and 50 billion jin.
Mao: I don’t believe your 50 billion jin. I believe your 40 billion jin. Forty billion jin means an increase of 15 billion jin. Can we produce 50 billion jin this year?
Wu: If the weather doesn’t change much, achieving 50 billion jin this year is quite certain. This year we planted more, and we planted evenly.
Mao: This year’s method of eating, harvesting, managing, and using grain is entirely different. Harvesting must be meticulous—every grain must be brought home. Management is decentralized—farmers’ individual grain is managed by their own households. The method of eating is grain rationed per person, voluntary participation, eating after finishing work, and paying for missed workdays. Eating without paying is combined with eating by paying. Grain production must be grasped tightly; it would be good if we can avoid next year’s spring famine. In light of last year’s slightly reduced wheat planting, how much do you plan to plant this year?
Wu: This year we can only plant an appropriate amount. Henan’s wheat planting is just over 70 million mu.
[Redacted]: Last year we planted one million mu less.
Wu: This year, the confirmed figure is probably around 75 million mu planted. When planting, there was some false reporting; later, road and river construction destroyed some. I estimate planting 75 million mu might be a bit more.
Mao: How much wheat will be planted this autumn?
[Redacted]: This year we plan to plant 80 million mu of wheat.
[Redacted]: The peak year (1956) was 88 million mu.
Mao: In which year will you restore it to 88 million mu?
[Redacted]: The land area has also decreased. In the past, it was over 130 million mu; now it’s over 120 million mu.
Mao: Where did the land go?
[Redacted]: Digging rivers, building roads and railways, and capital construction all occupied land.
Mao: Rivers don’t need to be dug every year. Roads will be even more developed in the future; land taken by factories and housing will increase further. Therefore, while emphasizing extensive cultivation for more yields, we must also pay attention to intensive and meticulous farming. Focus on high yields over large areas, not on a small number of "satellites."
Wu: This year, planting wheat plus miscellaneous grains, we can plant 80 million mu in autumn. This year we’re planting five million mu more than last year.
Mao: What if there’s no fertilizer? Wheat needs base fertilizer to do well.
Wu: The current issue is precisely the fertilizer problem. We’ve already raised the slogan: this year in agriculture, fertilizer takes the lead, launching a fertilizer accumulation campaign. Now we’re urgently grasping top-dressing for late autumn crops, and also grasping preparing fertilizer for wheat. We’re planning these three months to accumulate fertilizer on a large scale.
Mao Zedong: Complete Works, Volume 42
Mao: When you ask them to accumulate, and hold telephone conferences, they’ll make false reports—saying there’s that much when actually there isn’t.
Wu: If we don’t demand such high figures, they won’t falsely report.
[Redacted]: There’s also a policy issue. Combining collective fertilizer accumulation with individual fertilizer accumulation—also walking on two legs. Individual and collective, uniformly priced—some given cash, some recorded as work points.
Mao: That’s good.
[Redacted]: Last year it was only collective fertilizer accumulation; individual accumulation wasn’t emphasized. Even household toilets were eliminated in the name of hygiene. Now they’ve all been restored.
Mao: Good. The year before last, grain output was 25 billion jin. Last year it might have been 45 billion jin. This year, let’s achieve 50 billion jin.
Wu: This year’s wheat is 15 billion jin; there are still 35 billion jin to go. In Henan, it’s one wheat, two autumns. This year’s autumn planting area is large—autumn grain crops are nearly 100 million mu, and cash crops are over 20 million to 30 million mu. Many vacant lots have been planted this year, reclaiming over two million mu of wasteland.
Mao: Didn’t people not want to plant?
Wu: For wasteland, whoever plants it reaps; small collectives plant and small collectives reap; individuals plant and individuals reap. No agricultural tax is collected.
[Redacted]: Some are planted by mess units.
Mao: No agricultural tax, no state monopoly purchase.
Wu: If there are no unforeseen changes, 50 billion jin of grain this year is quite certain.
Mao: Next year we should slightly exceed that, right?
Wu: Next year 60 billion jin, the year after 80 billion jin. I went down to the grassroots to have a look—we all did. I traveled to nearly 30 counties, from Xuchang Prefecture, Xinyang Prefecture, Kaifeng Prefecture, all the way to Xinxiang Prefecture, roughly making a full circle. Now, if we can quickly summarize our experience in agricultural production, increasing output becomes more certain. The Great Leap Forward last year cannot be denied; a great deal of capital construction was done.
Conversation with Wu Zhipu and Others
Mao: That cannot be denied—hundreds of millions of people did it. Can you deny their achievements?
Wu: The first capital construction item was water conservancy.
Mao: You built so many water conservancy projects, yet they’re unusable.
Wu: They are being used.
Mao: They’re called main canals, branch canals, lateral canals, field ditches, and waste ditches. Digging these canals—the work is quite substantial.
Wu: Reservoirs, irrigation channels, ponds—the broad outline is all in place. Last year we breached the Yellow River at four points and built four sluice gates.
Mao: Are they usable or not?
[Redacted]: They play a major role.
Wu: They’re usable. This year we irrigated over 20 million mu of wheat. Both banks of the Yellow River have them.
[Redacted]: Two in northern Henan, two in southern Henan.
Mao: Create several gates on the Yellow River—sometimes the policy of opening the gates, sometimes the policy of closing them.
Wu: Land irrigated with Yellow River water becomes fertile.
Mao: Still, your province is quite dangerous. With silt accumulating like that, won’t the water level rise?
[Redacted]: We use iron sluice gates to control and prevent siltation. The old original course of the Yellow River still needs siltation.
Mao: It can still silt for at least a hundred years; no need to worry about one or two thousand years. The Yellow River will inevitably rise in the future—that is, flowing on the sky. Silt accumulates in great amounts, and the dikes on both sides get built higher and higher. Looking at the Yellow River from below is like looking at a tall building from flat ground. Right now, that’s the situation near Kaifeng; Kaifeng is low-lying.
Wu: Now, the areas near Kaifeng have all become the best land. One irrigation from the Yellow River—this year some places doubled their yield. In the past, about a hundred jin; this year, two hundred jin. Some more than doubled their yield. Puyang more than doubled its yield.
Mao Zedong: Complete Works, Volume 42
Mao: Your Ji County was enfeoffed by Yu the Great of the Xia Dynasty; the people of Ji County are descendants of Yu the Great. After the fall of King Zhou of the Shang Dynasty, Weizi was enfeoffed in Song, which is today’s Shangqiu.
Wu: From Fengqiu to Huaiyang, Xiayi, Shangqiu, Qi County, and all the way to Yu County—these were all areas where the Xia Dynasty was active.
Mao: The Shang Dynasty arose from Shang (now called Shanglu). Later, its descendants moved to Yin in northern Henan (today’s Xiaotun Village in Anyang). When King Wu attacked Zhou, he enfeoffed King Zhou’s son Wu Geng in Zhaoge (now Qi County). Later, Wu Geng conspired with King Wu’s brothers, Guanshu and Caishu, to rebel against the Zhou Dynasty.
Wu: Guanshu was enfeoffed right here—the old city of Zhengzhou is called Guan City.
Mao: Caishu was enfeoffed in Cai, which later became Shangcai. As far as the Zhou Dynasty was concerned, Guanshu and Caishu were both rebellious elements. At that time, Weizi was colluding with foreign states. Why was King Zhou overthrown? Mainly because Bigan opposed him, Jizi opposed him, and Weizi opposed him. King Zhou went to attack the Xu Yi (a large state, near present-day Xuzhou), fought for several years, and annihilated that state. King Zhou was very talented. All those bad things said about him later were spoken by the people of Zhou—don’t listen to them. Why did that state split? It was because these three were all oppositionists. And Weizi was the worst—a traitor (hanjian). He sent two people as representatives to request troops from Zhou. King Wu first went to Mengjin for a military review and then returned. Two years later, he said they could attack, because there was internal support. King Zhou killed Bigan and imprisoned Jizi, but took no precautions against Weizi—he only knew Weizi was an oppositionist, not that he was colluding with foreigners. Those who rehabilitate King Zhou’s reputation explain this reasoning. At that time, King Zhou had great renown; the common people of the Shang Dynasty supported him very much. King Zhou committed suicide; he did not surrender. Weizi was a traitor. Zhou should have enfeoffed him, but they didn’t dare, and instead enfeoffed King Zhou’s son Wu Geng. Later, Wu Geng rebelled, and only then did they enfeoff Weizi—enfeoffing Weizi in Song, which is Shangqiu.
Wu: Fuxi also operated around the Zhengzhou area. The water conservancy construction of the year before last and last year laid down a broad outline. This winter and next spring, we’ll repair and organize the field works. From here…
A Conversation with Wu Zhipu and Others

We now have experience with deep plowing and close planting. Combining these elements together, we call it pastoral landscaping—or perhaps river-networking?

Mao: Take afforestation, for example. Your afforestation here is excellent—why wouldn’t it be good?

Wu: This only came about after we moved to Zhengzhou in the past three to five years.

Mao: I said afforestation would take a hundred years, but it seems that’s not the case. You are leftists; I am a rightist. But to get it done comprehensively, it will still take that many years.

Wu: We’ve established several patches on the sand dunes, transformed them, and the results are very good.

[Unidentified speaker]: The suburbs of Kaifeng are excellent now. They are nothing like when the Chairman first visited. Kaifeng has changed enormously.

Wu: I went to Yuanyang County and saw over seventy thousand mu. They are pursuing integrated development—water storage, drainage, irrigation, navigation, afforestation, aquatic products, and crops—and it’s been very successful.

Mao: That place was under the jurisdiction of the Zhou dynasty; Duke Wen of Jin forced its cession. The idea of integration like this should be widely promoted. In agriculture, there are grain, cotton, oil crops, hemp, silk, tea, fruit, vegetables, tobacco, medicinal herbs—eleven items in all. A comprehensive balance must be maintained; every county should have a bit of each. At the very least, every prefecture must have all of these.

Wu: Also tung oil.

Mao: And pepper—Sichuan pepper, black pepper, and so on. How many varieties are there? There are also many varieties of oil crops—rapeseed, sesame, peanuts, soybeans, cottonseed, walnuts, sunflower seeds, even hemp seeds. We must broadly promote the development of oil-bearing crops. The shortage of oil is a major issue right now. In short, you should pursue comprehensive balance. This is regarding agriculture within farming, forestry, animal husbandry, and sidelines. As for forestry, the key is planned planting. Without forests, the world cannot be complete.

[Unidentified speaker]: Now timber is even more important than steel.

[Unidentified speaker]: The danger of a timber shortage is already very serious.

Mao: Humans exhale carbon dioxide, trees absorb it and release oxygen, which humans inhale. Trees are also beautiful. Every village, every house, should have trees planted alongside. Shaanxi has done quite well—there,

Mao Zedong Anthology, Volume 42
factories are separated by belts of trees.

Animal husbandry is also extensive: horses, cattle, sheep, chickens, dogs, pigs, and also mules and donkeys—large livestock and small livestock. Dogs are probably not very well liked. Do you have horses in Henan?

Wu: We have quite a few horses.

Mao: Among horses, cattle, and sheep, cattle are the main focus. Then come pigs, chickens, and ducks. We need a comprehensive balance.

In addition, there are sidelines. We must focus on small towns and the exchange of goods between urban and rural areas. Set up some free markets. In the beginning, some disorder is inevitable—there will be black markets, high prices—but that’s nothing to be afraid of; afterwards, appropriate management can be introduced. Currently, things are so rigidly controlled that in every province, after the communes were established, small items are nowhere to be bought. Household sidelines, handicrafts run by production brigades, and small towns beyond county seats must all be revitalized. You should look into this. Comrade Liu Zihou, the governor of Hebei Province, visited several counties in the Handan area and said, "Oh dear, it’s a sorry sight—everything has been completely wiped out, the flow between urban and rural areas is severed, commerce has ceased." Provinces and counties must revive handicrafts and restore the small markets. State-run factories should not produce so many things. I hear that in the Handan area, there were one million catties of apricots—a matter of just three to five days—and they quickly rotted. If you let the peasants sell them freely, no; they wanted the commercial companies to purchase everything at once. But where would they find enough people to sell that much? As a result, huge quantities rotted.

Wu: In Henan, the apricots are not collected; peasants peddle them on shoulder poles.

Mao: That’s good. But you still need to encourage it a bit.

[Unidentified speaker]: Rural commodities are not as varied as they were in the days of the supply and marketing cooperatives.

Mao: And then there is aquaculture. Do you have fish?

Wu: Aquaculture has developed greatly.

[Unidentified speaker]: Now all the reservoirs have fish, some weighing over a dozen catties, but they just can’t be caught.

Mao: Hopeless—we can control water but not fish.

[Unidentified speaker]: The reservoir bottoms weren’t properly cleared. Now, when one tries to net them, the fish hide—they can’t be caught easily.

Mao: In industry, the issue is also one of comprehensive balance. We must focus on variety, specifications, quality, and management. Comprehensive balance in industry is the counterpart of farming, forestry, animal husbandry, sidelines, and fishery. If you want to produce steel, you cannot look only at small blast furnaces and small converters; you must consider coke ovens. If coal washing and coking are not done well, there is no way to improve quality. The specification allowing 0.2 percent sulfur will soon be scrapped. Higher sulfur content is highly detrimental to our country. Sulfur content should be at 0.07 percent or less, and must not exceed 0.08 percent. Otherwise, huge piles of steel produced will be unusable and must be sent back to the furnace—effort spent in vain. They have several slogans: "Better fewer, but better, and more complete"—meaning greater variety and specifications. There are many things we still cannot produce and must rely on imports. For ten years we maintained a comprehensive balance, forgot it in the eighth year (after the Beidaihe Conference), and now it has been restored; after the Shanghai Conference, it was firmly established by the time we reached Beijing. Why was it established? Because we lacked that thing. To produce 13 million tons of steel requires 20 million tons of iron; to produce 20 million tons of iron requires 70 million tons of iron ore and 340 million tons of coal (including residential use, which accounts for 90 million tons). Thinking it over, one realizes the absence of even a single element is impossible. Should we abandon the leap forward slogan next year? But next year we must emphasize variety, specifications, and quality. Quantity is also important, but the emphasis must shift to variety and quality—catching our breath after a pause. Why did things turn out this way this year? Because last year we completely exhausted the materials—nothing more than steel, cement, and timber. We are now tapping latent potential and clearing warehouses everywhere; this is good, but also very dangerous. If everything is cleared and there are no reserves left, the first quarter of this year should set lower targets. If you give him no materials but want him to do so much, it’s like asking him to cook without giving him rice. Even a clever woman cannot cook without rice, while a foolish woman given rice can still produce a meal. In light of this, first-quarter targets must be low. Last year was a great leap forward; this year is another great leap forward—1,800 capital construction projects have been cut to some 780, eliminating just over 1,000. Our ambitions were too great; the spirit was praiseworthy, but it could not be done. We have criticized the "saddle-shaped" pattern; the mistake that year was primarily that the "opposition to rash advance" was inappropriate, not that the reduction of the capital construction plan was wrong. As a result of the massive construction in 1956, the warehouses became rather empty, so in 1957 we could only undertake so much construction—starting at 11.1 billion yuan and later reaching over 12 billion, somewhat less than the previous year. This year, however, is even greater than last year. Last year's great leap forward involved over 20 billion. This year was originally projected at 28 billion, but has been reduced to just over 22 billion, leaving 780 projects. Next year we can probably sustain a similar amount, or add a little, but not too much. In these two years, we should advance steadily, as if building a house—making the foundation sturdier.

Management involves many aspects: financial management, quota management, safety management, and quality management. In the past, authority was delegated all the way down to workshops and work sections; workers managed things themselves, and factories no longer conducted inspections. Commerce was handed over to cooperatives. This was all our doing, and I also approved of decentralization. So authority was delegated to the provinces, provinces to prefectures, prefectures to counties, and counties to communes. As for delegating commerce and banking to the communes—that was a central decision. Now it seems not to work: if they belong to the communes, we lose our footing. Have you taken them back now?

[Unidentified speaker]: The banks have been taken back, but authority over commerce has not yet been fully retracted.

Mao: I think authority over commerce must be taken back. Communes and production brigades can set up retail stores and collect a commission. Coordinate the state-owned economy with the collective economy. In the past, we had the idea of blending these two elements; as a result, they didn't obey orders—the communes wouldn't listen to you. The communes also wouldn't listen to the ordinary people, nor to the production brigades. The production brigades grew afraid of the communes, and the people also feared the communes. We too fear the communes: they ignore us, doing whatever they want, whipping up the "Communist wind" without even asking permission: "May I whip up a little Communist wind?" Not a single commune ever submitted such a request. The best thing is that they have learned their lesson, and we quickly turned the situation around. In a few months—two months of it in Henan, you say. In the future, the Party history will have to record this: two months of whipping up the "Communist wind," and then it was reversed and stopped. We reversed it quickly; the Soviet comrades greatly praised our swift reversal. When non-staple foods were in short supply, and daily necessities lacking, we immediately focused on it. We delegated too much authority; four powers must be reclaimed to the center and the provinces. Which four powers? First, the power over personnel. For example, hiring workers: last year, 20 million were hired nationwide for 1958. From the Opium War, through the development of capitalist industry, up to the time we took over, there were only 12 million workers. Yet last year alone, we added 20 million—isn’t that outrageous? No wonder non-staple foods are lacking, no wonder there is no soap. First, power over personnel; second, fiscal power; third, commercial power; fourth, industrial power. These four powers must be taken back—they cannot be delegated down to every level. Under personnel, the hiring of workers must be controlled by the central government and the provinces and municipalities; it must all be planned. Isn’t this a planned economy? As for fiscal power, I’m not entirely clear on what it specifically entails. They mentioned this problem: For instance, you have tobacco leaves here. If the Xuchang Prefecture has so much tobacco and you give me the money, promising a million dan, in the end they may only have half a million—but the money has already been taken. The same happened with cotton. I hear that extra-budgetary funds amount to 29 percent—scattered materials, and working capital being used for other purposes. In my view, for a period, it can at least be described as semi-anarchy: absolutely no supreme command, no one checking with anyone else—each becoming an independent kingdom.

Wu: The county cannot control the commune; the prefecture cannot control the county; the province cannot control the prefecture.

Mao: I used to worry about the counties; they themselves whipped up a bit of wind and were relatively passive. Only the provinces and prefectures were relatively proactive, because they themselves didn’t whip it up, and they didn’t demand people’s carts, whereas counties asked for a little. Now we see that the counties didn’t demand much; county committee members are fairly high in their level of understanding—once you talk sense, they get it. What remains is the communes.

What are your iron and steel production targets? I’ve forgotten.

Wu: Ultimately, 550,000 tons of iron, and very little steel—only 109,000 tons, all of it good steel.

Mao: We must produce good steel. In ten thousand years, Henan has never produced so much steel. In 1959, you produced 100,000 tons—you surpassed Chiang Kai-shek by one and a half times. Chiang Kai-shek only had 40,000 tons of steel.

Wu: 109,000 tons of steel, 20,000 tons of rolled steel, and 550,000 tons of good iron (with sulfur content under 0.2 percent).

Mao: We must still improve. In any case, you must not maintain the 0.2 percent level. Next year, the 0.2 percent specification must collapse; it must drop below 0.1 percent—say, to 0.07 or 0.08 percent.

Wu: The quality of our iron has just recently improved, but it’s not yet stable.

Mao: My view is that we should still raise the slogan of surpassing Britain in the output of major industrial products, in about fifteen years or perhaps a bit less. Major products are not limited to steel alone. As for steel ingots, we might surpass them in the second Five-Year Plan, but there are also variety and quality—superior-grade steel, machinery. It won't do if we can’t overtake Britain in machinery. In coal, we already produce more than they do. To surpass them in iron and steel will take a few more years. The originally quite appropriate slogan now seems unexciting; "surpassing Britain in fifteen years" no longer seems satisfying enough. Likewise, the Forty-Article Agricultural Program has lost its appeal. I wonder if there might be an opportunity to raise the targets set in that forty-article program, or to draw up another forty-article program, to be passed by the National People's Congress. At present, without having been passed, it seems to have become null and void. In reality, it will probably take a little more time for the universal per-mu yield to reach five hundred catties, won’t it?

Wu: We’ll need another two to three years.

[Unidentified speaker]: An annual average per-mu yield of five hundred catties seems attainable, but a single crop cannot normally do it.

Mao: Of course, I am speaking of two or three crops per year.

All: That’s easier.

Wu: Last year’s average per-mu yield was just over four hundred catties; this year, it’s about five hundred. Now we need to concentrate on several things: First, continue improving water conservancy. Second, emphasize the experience of large-area high-yield cultivation—such as pastoral landscaping, river-networking, and integrated development. This year’s wheat featured many examples of large-area high yield: quite a number of ten-thousand-mu tracts exceeding five hundred catties per mu, and several tens-of-thousands-mu tracts exceeding three hundred catties. Last year’s "satellite fields" didn't contribute much to total grain output.

Mao: You say that all those satellite fields were American satellites—they crashed halfway—but you can’t put it quite like that. Some were genuine, just not so numerous. There weren’t any with five thousand, twenty thousand, or thirty thousand catties, but there were fields yielding over one thousand catties.

Wu: The ones with seven thousand catties were debunked; those with two or three thousand catties did exist. Sweet potatoes yielding over ten thousand catties, even thirty or forty thousand catties, there were some. Ultimately, the most fundamental issue remains labor; with enough labor, success follows.

Secondly...

Talk with Wu Zhipu and Others

Issues of fertilizer and mechanization. Based on the experience of engaging in agriculture over the past few years, it is still best to concentrate efforts on fertilizer production and tool reform. By pursuing semi-mechanization, full mechanization, and tool reform, we can save manpower and do a good job. Another key is to properly manage water conservancy. With these few measures, transforming low-yield fields into high-yield ones on a broad scale is just a matter of a few years' effort. This year, our high-yield wheat already accounts for about 25 percent.

Mao: That's only one quarter. With another quarter, we can reach 50 to 60 percent.

Wu: Reaching 70 percent would be very good; agriculture can still be boosted.

Mao: I am also thinking about the Forty Articles on Agriculture, slightly raising the targets, still over twelve years, counting from 1956, to be passed by the National People's Congress next year. The Party Congress won't be held this year; it will be held in February or March next year. The Party Congress will approve it first, and then the National People's Congress will approve it in April or May.

Wu: Pig farming in rural areas is a major issue. Fertilizer accumulation, pig raising, livestock breeding, tool reform, and water conservancy improvement—these are still the key tasks.

Mao: Grain must be allocated for livestock. You now have a population of 48 million, let's round it to 50 million. With an average of 400 jin of grain rations per person, that's 20 billion jin. You need to set aside some grain for livestock and poultry (horses, cattle, mules, donkeys, pigs, chickens, ducks, geese)—100 billion jin for them.

Wu: We don't need 100 billion jin.

Mao: Allocate 80 billion jin; anything less won't work. Shandong plans to give 80 billion jin, and their population is similar to yours, with their grain ration also at 20 billion jin.

□□□: Grain rations are 20 billion jin, levies are 7.5 billion jin, 10 billion jin for feed, and 1 billion jin for industrial and service sector use.

Mao: With 10 billion jin of feed, your province will greatly prosper. Then, there's the reserve grain.

In short, I don't care about other matters, but allocating 10 billion jin of feed will make your province thrive. When you give feed to the livestock, they produce manure, which is fertilizer. Pigs provide meat products, and also bristles. Cattle plow the fields and serve as transport tools. Horses, donkeys, and mules are transport tools.

Wu: Currently, only 80 jin of grain is kept per pig.

Mao: If you want 100 jin of meat, you have to provide 100 jin of grain. If you want 150 jin of meat, you have to provide 150 jin of grain. You are currently at 80 jin of grain, still 70 jin short.

□□□: We should also feed them some other things, using substitutes.

Mao: "Vegetables and grain for half the year"—the pigs haven't improved their diet yet.

Wu: For pigs, mules, and horses, we can keep more feed in the future.

Mao: Discuss this with the counties. The provincial party committee should resolve to allocate 10 billion jin of feed. In a few years, say ten years, it'll be half and half—what humans eat and what livestock eat, for example, humans eat 200 jin, and feed is 200 jin. Currently, humans eat 200 jin, and feed is only 100 jin. In the past, feed was far too little.

Wu: In the past, some was kept aside, but the pigs never got to eat it; people ate the grain meant for pigs.

□□□: In fact, once the feed issue is resolved, people will actually save grain. In our urban supply, in past years we had chickens, eggs, and pastries, and couldn't finish the grain. Now that these are reduced, grain consumption has increased.

Mao: Does making pastries still require 1 billion jin of grain in your province?

Wu: Less than that will do.

Mao: Use some grain for industrial purposes, make more pastries, and the market will liven up.

Wu: Feed and grain for industrial and service sector use—once these two are resolved, the market will flourish.

Mao: Make it more bustling; we can reclaim currency, and business will boom, reaching all corners of the world.

Wu: Recently, we've been drafting a plan to develop a diversified economy and are preparing to hold a special meeting. Currently, collectively raised pigs number seven to eight million; we plan to reach 15 million by the end of this year. For private pig raising, we aim for an average of one pig per household, which would be 9 million head. If there are 30 million pigs, that's one pig for every three mu of land; typically, one pig provides enough manure for two mu of land. There are also six to seven million head of livestock. One head of livestock covers two mu, one pig covers two mu—then the fertilizer will be about enough. A diversified economy meeting is scheduled for the 25th; planning is underway now.

Mao: A diversified economy meeting should first cover farming, forestry, animal husbandry, sideline production, and fishery. For each category, list exactly what items it includes. For example, just now you mentioned eleven items in farming, plus you added rubber, lacquer, and tung oil, making it fourteen. For grain, make a list. Within agriculture, grain, cotton, oil crops, and hemp all have many varieties. Grain has over a dozen varieties. Cotton also has many—they say twelve types, classified by fiber length. Hemp includes jute, green hemp, hemp, and ramie. Oil crops, as just discussed, are numerous. Make a list and do some planning. Tobacco leaves also have varieties—like the Yunnan type, local types, Sichuan types; some for commercial use, some for regular consumption, flue-cured tobacco, and air-cured tobacco. Economic work does indeed need to be more meticulous, considering all aspects. One shortcoming in the past year was that we often focused on one side and forgot the other side, or several sides, or even dozens of sides. When setting up small blast furnaces and small converters, we didn't consider coal washing, primary coking coal, refractory materials, or transportation, and we also forgot about steel variety and quality.

The materials you've provided are very beneficial to me. Especially notable is that the overall situation is stable, developing, and thriving. The whole province has no grain panic; production is very promising. The wheat harvest is already in hand, and the autumn harvest is also very hopeful. The situation is good, and people's hearts are stable. Now, with the settling of accounts, the return of things taken without compensation, and the convening of cadre meetings at multiple levels, the people's hearts are thus supportive, and the cadres are united. Among your 1.2 million cadres, those criticized and corrected number over 400,000; those expelled or penalized are only 3,600; and only 720 received criminal sanctions. This policy is good. The canteens must be upheld, and they can be upheld. I am not asking your canteens to collapse; I hope they can be maintained.

Wu: The canteens can be maintained through dedicated work.

Mao: Now that grain is distributed to each household and participation is voluntary, the canteens can be maintained. Promote canteen mechanization, semi-mechanization, and things like gravity-fed water systems to achieve savings. It's not just about saving manpower, but also saving grain, firewood, oil, and salt. As long as the canteens can achieve savings, the masses will support them.

Wu: Last night I talked with two comrades who went to the countryside a few days ago. One went to Xiayi County, and the other to Yancheng County. Xiayi is a county where people's lives are relatively difficult. After discussions among the masses, over 90 percent support the canteens. Staunch supporters make up over 50 to 60 percent; including those who support with conditions, it's over 90 percent. The other 40 to 50 percent are due to the canteens being poorly run; with some improvements, they'll be fine.

□□□: Over seventy people participated in free debate. They didn't say it was central policy, provincial policy, or county policy; everyone just discussed it together.

Wu: Large meetings and small meetings, completely free. A comrade who visited Yancheng County saw full support for the canteens there.

Mao: The mechanization of your canteens hasn't been widely implemented yet.

Wu: Mechanization accounts for about 10 to 20 percent.

Mao: Can you prepare a set to show at Lushan?

Wu: We've already issued a directive and are preparing a plan. We've also repeatedly studied this situation and feel it's basically good. The only tension is in urban supply, but it's not a major one—just tightness in pork, eggs, and soap.

Mao: What's the big deal if supply is a bit tight? In Hebei Province, for the previous grain year, the central government and other provinces transferred 2.7 billion jin of grain to them. From the second half of last year to the first half of this year, it was only 700 million jin, but they made great progress. In the western part of Shandong, grain is a bit tight. In Hubei, grain is quite tight, probably also regionally—some areas are better, some areas are tighter. Those four model counties there collapsed: Macheng, Xiaogan, Hong'an, and Gucheng. They claimed yields of 2,600 jin per mu, calling them "Double-Thousand-Jin Counties," but it was fake. The result was a huge grain shortage, and they couldn't complete the grain procurement. They were fairly well-off originally, but not that well-off, yet they lived as if they were rich.

□□□: Last year, the crops in Macheng really did grow well. In August or September, when I went to Hankou for a coordination meeting and passed through that area, I saw the crops were doing well, but they were harvested carelessly, and a lot of grain was wasted.

Wu: The rice suffered from being transplanted in crowded clusters; dozens of mu were merged into one plot, so the yield actually decreased.

Mao: Besides that, Guangdong's grain is a bit tight. Only these few provinces are tight. Other provinces aren't tight on grain; it's non-staple foods, daily necessities, and industrial goods that are relatively tight. We are now focusing on this. In Shanghai, we're holding a meeting on non-staple foods and handicraft goods for 51 cities. You've sent people there; Comrade Xiannian is presiding over it. Let's discuss together: is our overall situation good or not? If the nation is about to perish, then handle it as a dying nation. But now the nation is not perishing; it is thriving. A few small loaches stir up a little wave, and you think it's a big deal—I don't buy that reasoning.

Wu: We've studied the situation and believe that the countryside is now in a production upsurge, better than any previous year. The order during this year's wheat harvest was excellent. In the past, farmers would secretly cut wheat; this year, there's been no theft of wheat.

□□□: This year, there's been no eating of unripe grain.

Wu: In the past, wheat was eaten when it was only 60 to 70 percent ripe; this year, none has been eaten.

Mao: The people's rights, workers' rights, financial rights, and commercial rights I mentioned earlier refer to the state level. As for the collective, its ownership is basically team ownership with a portion of commune ownership; production rights lie with the production teams. This rule must be set: when a person eats one jin of grain, give livestock half a jin.

Wu: Large cattle, mules, and horses eat three to four jin.

□□□: Livestock eat more than people. Even the smallest livestock eats as much as a person's grain ration.

Wu: Small livestock equals one person; large livestock equals one and a half.

Mao: Classify them and discuss with the local authorities. Go and make arrangements. On the 25th, I'll be in Wuchang; the Central Committee will issue a notice.

Wu: Chairman, stay here for two days. Leave tomorrow, watch an opera.

Mao: I'm leaving today for Xiaogan; that place is a bit cooler. I also need to invite Comrade Wang Renzhong to come there. I'll talk with him this afternoon and tomorrow morning. Then, invite Tao Zhu and Zhou Xiaozhou to come. Zhou Xiaozhou wants to keep the canteens, Li Jingquan wants to, and so do you. If the canteens can hold out in a few provinces, basically without collapsing—that is, if 70 percent don't collapse and only 30 percent do—then things will be easy. As for giving canteens a week off during the Spring Festival, that's also fine.

□□□: In particular, women generally don't want the canteens to disband. With canteens, they have economic status, can increase production, and have income; husbands even have to ask their wives for money. She doesn't cook, goes to work in the fields, and earns more than from other work. So, women also very much approve of the canteens. Women say: "I was only liberated a few days ago, clean for a few days, and now I have to go back to the kitchen, back to being slovenly."

Mao: If your province can hold the line on canteens, the whole country will hold the line. Roughly, if 70 percent collapse, 30 percent remain. If this 30 percent can persist for one or two years, the others will gradually come back. Once you implement this set of canteen mechanization measures, I think they will be consolidated. You can set up small canteens.

Wu: We estimate that over 90 percent of canteens can be consolidated, or maybe even more. It might be slightly more that collapse—hard to say.

□□□: With canteen mechanization, and vegetables grown and pigs raised with the canteen as a unit, their strength is very substantial.

Mao: Households can still grow some vegetables and sell them to the canteen.

Wu: We now feel the situation is still good. The reason it's good is that the Party's policies have been implemented, and accounts have been settled. Farmers have received two to three hundred million yuan in cash from the settlement; some households received forty or fifty yuan. Additionally, livestock, pigs, and chickens have been returned to them. Just farming tools alone, nearly ten million pieces were given back; a lot of houses were also returned.

Mao: You have a set of accounts—I came across it in some document or other.
Wu: This final accounting still hasn’t been settled clearly. The overall situation is fairly good, and the people are in a somewhat more relaxed frame of mind. Our next step is to stabilize the institutional arrangements—things like the private plot system, the system of distributing grain to each household, and the wage system.
Mao: Draw up a set of rules and regulations. The old charter of that Satellite Commune won’t do anymore; it had a bit of a “communist wind” about it.
Wu: On this trip to Lushan, we can bring the charters from a few communes. There are still a few days left—we’ll make some preparations at home and then solicit opinions from the Party committees at the prefectural and county levels. We’ve recently fired a shot, so to speak, by firmly deciding to distribute grain to each household and firmly deciding to retain private plots. As for the dining halls, the principle we are firmly upholding is voluntary participation and managing them well.
Mao: Don’t go around advocating that the dining halls should resolutely collapse. The principle is firmly voluntary and firmly well-managed.
Wu: Recently there’s also an instruction on striving for a bumper autumn harvest—that will be sent over very soon, too.
Mao: Good, that’s it then. Thank you.
Wu: When does the Chairman leave?
Mao: I’m being a liberalist here. I’m ready to set off right now, driving to Guangshui, and I won’t be watching the opera either.
Wu: We’ll send someone along.
Mao: Not a single person, not even a secretary. I have the people who manage the railway on this train.

--- Notes

Wu Zhipu (hereinafter referred to as Wu): From last year's wheat harvest to the Spring Festival, there was no planning for food consumption.
[Redacted]: They ate recklessly and requisitioned grain without compensation.
Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): Understanding deepens step by step.
[Redacted]: At that time, the cadres were also very hot-headed.
Mao: Everyone's minds were heated—both above and below—and once heated, everything was taken for public use.
Wu: The masses also didn’t know the real situation.
Mao: There were some so-called "tide-watchers," but actually they weren’t tide-watchers; they were honest people. Those people were sharper than us. They said, "Eating like this won’t do!" This is a great lesson—there are lessons from the communes, lessons from grain, lessons from agriculture, and lessons from industry. The commune lesson is about the mass line: becoming detached from the masses and whipping up the "communist wind." What thing provoked the masses’ anger? It was whipping up the "communist wind."
[Redacted]: It was severe in September and October, then recovered by November, and by December that line was basically corrected.
Mao: Whipping it up is easy, but reining it back is hard. Hebei Province issued an order: within three days, all large carts must be returned, or else face dismissal. They said they understood, but still didn’t return them. One district Party secretary said, "I selected the worst ones to send down four times. For example, if there were a thousand large carts, I sent down a few dozen—all bad ones—and kept the rest." When dismissal was threatened, within a few days all were sent down. You must use the mass line approach; don’t resort to the method of "return them or be dismissed."