Mao Zedong: You’ve been waiting a long time, haven’t you? Because we were in a meeting, I couldn’t see you earlier.

Marcogin: It’s a great honour to be received by you—waiting as long as it takes is fine.

Mrs. Dutre: Even if we had to wait longer, we are still grateful for your reception. Besides, this gave us a chance to read more materials and stay in China a little longer.

Mao: What materials have you read? Marcogin and Mrs. Dutre: Your works, including *On New Democracy*.

Mao: In *On New Democracy*, I said that after the Second World War, a country like the Turkey of Kemal Pasha could no longer emerge; the bourgeoisie of colonies and semi-colonies must either stand on the side of the imperialist front or on the side of the anti-imperialist front—there is no other path. In fact, this view applies only to some countries; it does not apply to countries such as India, Indonesia, and the United Arab Republic. They are neither imperialist countries nor socialist ones, but nationalist countries. There are many such countries in Latin America as well, and there will be more in the future.

Mrs. Dutre: The book *On New Democracy* is very important for a country like Brazil.

Mao: What this book discusses is the bourgeois democratic revolution. Generally speaking, the views in the book are correct—only on a few specific points like the one I just mentioned is some supplementation needed.

Marcogin: Can the neutral stance of nationalist countries be maintained for a long time?

Mao: Nothing can be maintained forever. Imperialism cannot be maintained forever. Socialism cannot be maintained forever either, because it must advance into an even higher communist society. A neutral stance can be maintained for a fairly long period, for as long as it remains necessary.

Mrs. Dutre: For nationalist countries, is it righteous to adopt a neutral stance?

Mao: Yes. These countries stand neither on the side of imperialism nor on the side of socialism, but adopt a neutral stance and do not join either bloc—this suits their present circumstances.

Mrs. Dutre: Can they maintain normal relations with both sides at the same time?

Mao: In our view, they can. However, when nationalist countries adopt a neutral stance, the imperialist countries are not pleased, because the neutrality of these nationalist countries is achieved by breaking free from their control. Such neutrality on the part of nationalist countries is also a stance of independence and self-determination, free from control. We in the socialist camp welcome this neutral stance of these countries, because it benefits the cause of peace and harms the imperialist plans for aggression and war. We regard the already independent countries of Asia, Africa, and Latin America as friends, and we also regard those countries that are not yet independent and are struggling for independence as friends. We support them. What is the population of Latin America?

Marcogin: About a hundred million.

Mao: A hundred million friends. Brazil’s population accounts for 60 percent of Latin America’s population—you are a big country. In the future, Brazil’s population will grow still larger; your territory is so vast, almost comparable to China’s. Your country has a great future.

Marcogin: We hope China will help us industrialise.

Mao: As long as you are willing, we have no reason to be unwilling. If any country in Asia, Africa, or Latin America wants us to lend a helping hand, we are all willing.

Mrs. Dutre: Latin America is a very important stronghold for the United States. The U.S. is retreating everywhere in the world, so it is stepping up pressure on Latin America.

Mao: Latin America is the backyard of the United States. The countries of Asia, Africa, and Latin America were all, or still are, the backyards and supply depots of imperialism. Now the backyard is in revolt, and many countries have already thrown off imperialist rule.

Mrs. Dutre: Latin America is just beginning to do this, but it is very difficult.

Mao: One can first achieve a state of semi-independence and then full independence. That is the case for many countries in Asia and Africa. Some have already become independent, some are semi-independent and striving for full independence, and some are still under imperialist rule.

Marcogin: We would like to know your opinion, Mr. Chairman, on China establishing diplomatic relations and trade with Latin American countries.

Mao: So long as Brazil and other Latin American countries are willing to establish diplomatic relations with China, we welcome them all. Even without diplomatic relations, doing business is fine too. Even without doing business, general contacts are fine. The social systems of China and the Latin American countries are different, but on many points we are alike. First of all, the demand for independence is a point we share. Not only do you have the issue of independence—we do as well. We still have the Taiwan issue, and the United States is still threatening us. Even after the recovery of Taiwan, the threat from the United States will still exist. This is our greatest common ground. Second, our economies are all underdeveloped. The desire to develop the economy is urgent on your side, and urgent on our side too. The common historical task for all the countries of Asia, Africa, and Latin America is to strive for national independence and to develop a national economy and a national culture.

Marcogin: Has the U.S. embargo had any effect on China?

Mao: For us, it has had no effect—and it has done us a great deal of good.

Marcogin: Is the Chairman optimistic or pessimistic about the international situation?

Mao: At present, the international situation is very good. It is very difficult for the Western countries to achieve their aims. Their aim is to dominate every place they can possibly dominate, but they are met with resistance everywhere. These colonial countries form a bloc and call themselves the Western countries. Geographically speaking, Brazil is also a Western country; but politically speaking, what they call the Western countries is really just the United States, Britain, France, Italy, Belgium, West Germany, Holland, and so on. The sun of the Western world is the evening sun, a setting sun; the sun of Asia, Africa, and Latin America is the morning sun, a rising sun. Imperialism has always tried to intimidate people, and sometimes it lashes out with blows. We simply must not be intimidated, we must not fear them. Admiration for the West is a superstition, formed by history, and now this superstition is gradually being shattered. To say the West is advanced is also a superstition; on the contrary, they are backward. Naturally, they have a few things—nothing more than a few tons of steel and a few atom bombs. But that is really nothing extraordinary, because politically they are backward, corrupt, and of base taste, so we look down on them. Lenin said things like “advanced Asia, backward Europe.” At the time, what Lenin was referring to were the democratic movements in China and other Asian countries; he saw that Asia would outpace Europe. Now, in addition to the socialist camp, besides the national revolutionary movements in Asia, we must also include the national revolutionary movements of Africa and Latin America—all these are advanced, whereas the Western world is backward. People like Dulles would not be convinced by these words. They would say: “That’s boasting. We have steel and atom bombs—how can we be backward?” I say: Although they have steel and atom bombs, these things are in the hands of backward people, in the hands of monopoly capitalists. For a while they may swagger, but in the end they are bound to collapse. Breaking down the superstition about the West is a major task; it must be done in Asia, Africa, and Latin America. In our own country, we must continue to break down this superstition as well. What I mean is, we must despise imperialism strategically, see imperialism as a paper tiger, count it as nothing; but tactically and in every specific piece of work, we must take it seriously and treat it with due seriousness. The transformation of imperialism from a real tiger into a half-real, half-false tiger, and then into a completely false tiger—that is, a paper tiger—is the process of a thing turning into its opposite. Our task is to promote this process. Before this process is complete, the tiger may still live for a while and can still bite people. Therefore, when beating the tiger, you must strike punch by punch and pay attention to boxing technique; you must not be careless. The people of the Western countries also disagree with what their governments are doing. When I say the United States is bad, I mean only its ruling clique is bad. The American people are very fine. Many among them have not yet awakened, but they certainly will.

Mrs. Dutre: We believe your explanations will be very helpful to Latin America.

Mao: We are very concerned about the situation of the people of Latin America. For example, Nixon’s trip to South America interested us greatly. The story of the eight countries—

Marcogin: He received a grand “welcome.” Dulles also received a grand “welcome” in Rio de Janeiro.

Mao: The people of Latin America have risen up—they do not take Nixon and Dulles seriously. In their eyes, Nixon and Dulles are no more than paper tigers. Nixon and Dulles have both fallen behind; the people of Latin America are far more insightful than they are.