Conversation with Gunther Weisenborn
(November 11, 1956)

Source: Liaoning ribao (Apr. 14, 1957).

This conversation, which took place on November 11, 1956, was reported verbatim in G.
Weisenborn’s article “Gespräch mit Mao Tse-tung” in Sonntag, 51 (December 16, 1956),
(Berlin). This then appeared in Russian translation in Literaturnaia Gazeta (Moscow) (Jan.
3, 1957), and the Russian was subsequently translated into Chinese and appeared in the
journal Mengya (no. 4, Feb. 1957) (Shanghai). The Liaoning ribao text used here is a reprint
of the Mengya translation. Weisenborn’s article does not lend itself easily to the culling of
Mao’s end of the conversation from the entire dialogue. The interview, as apparent from the
translation here, was rendered largely in the third person. In order not to damage the
original record, we have presented it here in the form of reported speech as in the original,
rather than in dialogue form. As such, the pronoun “I” in this document generally refers
to Weisenborn.

There is considerable discrepancy between the Chinese version as printed in the Liaoning
ribao/Mengya source and the German and Russian sources. Where the difference is
important (e.g., where a paragraph or a passage in the German or Russian source has been
omitted in the Mengya translation) we have noted the omission or discrepancy in our
annotations. In such cases we have also provided, in the notes, a translation of the omitted
passage from the German or Russian source. Minor discrepancies are simply indicated in
the text in brackets. Our translation of the document as a whole, however, is made from the
Liaoning ribao source.

A report of Weisenborn’s meeting with Mao (without transcript of the conversation) is
in RMRB (Nov. 12, 1956, 1).

Mao Zedong inquires in detail about my journey. I talk about his poems and tell
him that his works are very widely known in Germany. He avoids this topic and
says that he is no longer involved in literary work. He smiles [and says that] he has
too much [other work] to do. I say that I plan to write a book about my trip. He
turns very serious and says: “You should not write only about positive things, but
should also write about the negative things in that book. It is important also to point
out the shortcomings. Mistakes are made everywhere in the world where people
have suffered oppression for a long time; hence its economy and culture
are not strong enough yet. We are still in a transitional period. Every form of society
will meet with obstacles; these obstacles have to be overcome.”
I mention that I was deeply impressed by one thing, which is that I found the
images of two Germans, Marx and Engels, on Chinese postage stamps. He laughs
and replies: “Yes, we have brought Marx here; we feel he is needed here every
day, and for the time being we have no plans to return him to you. [But] there will
surely come a day when these two great Germans will also be respected in your
country, in West Germany.”

OCTOBER—DECEMBER 1956 / 153

Mao Zedong says that he has studied the materialist philosophers Feuerbach and
Haeckel, but also Kant, Hegel, and Leibniz. He adds that one should also study
idealist philosophy, otherwise one would still be an ignoramus and would not be
able to correctly understand materialism. Because of this, he believes that there is
a need to establish a teaching chair1 to study Kant and Hegel, so that students can
become acquainted with idealist philosophy. In China, however, he says, not only
the German philosophers but also the German writers as well are known. Guo
Moruo2 [for one] has translated Goethe’s works into Chinese, and many other
writers have been translated as well.

There is a pause and Mao Zedong puts a cup of tea on the armrest of the sofa
on which I am sitting. Then he asks about the political situation in West Germany
and inquires about the date of the next elections to the Bundestag. I reply: “They
will take place in the fall of 1957.” He asks about the Social Democratic Party and
says: “It ought to be supported; a victory for it would be appropriate.” He says:
“In West Germany, as in China, there are many interesting things. One can study
in detail anything in China.” I reply: “I have studied the figures of the Second
Five-Year Plan,3 and I think they are remarkable.” He laughs and says: “All that
is still terribly inadequate. We want to produce 10 million tons of steel in 1962.”
He adds: “In its Third Five-Year Plan,4 China would be able to produce as much
steel as West Germany.” He laughs and says: “In West Germany, too, one can be
sure that steel production will be increased, although it is hard to say what the
situation of [its] steel production will be in the future.”5

Mao Zedong asks me what about China has made the deepest impression on me.
I reply: “I have been very deeply impressed by the cheerfulness of the people in
the streets and in the cities.” He shows surprise and asks: “Is that so? How is it
then in Europe?” I reply: “There is little cheerfulness in people’s hearts in
Europe.” He inquires with a tone of concern: “Why is there such a difference?”
He then immediately answers his own question, and says: “The Chinese people
have taken their destiny into their own hands, they realize that their lives are
improving day by day, and therefore they are full of hope.”

There is another pause. Then he asks: “What have you written? Are you
[mainly] a novelist or a poet?” I answer: “I write drama and novels.” I add: “I
am delighted to find some of my books listed in the reference catalog of the library
of Beijing University. I am especially happy to find that one of my books,
Memorial, is not unknown here.” He shows great interest about the content of the
book. He asks whether or not the book has been translated into Chinese. I reply:
“No, it hasn’t.” He says that it should be translated and turns to the secretary of
the Commission for Cultural Relations with Foreign Countries and says: “You’ll
have to remind me about this in the future.”6 I suggest that [they should] first of
all translate the works of Bertolt Brecht. I say that he [Brecht] was, in his lifetime,
fond of Chinese culture and had written a play entitled The Good Woman of
Sichuan, which was set in China.7

I inquire: “Is it possible for other West German authors to visit China?” His
reply to the question is immediate and positive: “But of course. No matter which
West German author, as long as he or she wants to come, may come and may stay


for as long as he or she should want to, one or two or three months. We can invite
them to come here. Those who do not want to be invited can also pay for their own
passage. No matter what, no one starves in China. All writers can come—writers
of the Left, center, and Right, even people who are against China. Let all of them
come see for themselves.” I oppose [this idea], saying: “No, it is probably better
not to let them [all] come; I don’t think this is right.” Mao Zedong frowns and says:
“No, it is right to let them come. In every country there are people on the Left,
people in the center, and people on the Right.”
The conversation turns to the [subject of the] Soviet Union. [Mao explains:]8
“It is the first socialist country in the world. [It is a country with] very rich
experience. We must learn from them. They have also made some mistakes there.
We must also learn from their mistakes, so that we can avoid detours and reach our
goal along the shortest route. We treat the capitalists and the intellectuals in this
way: we try to win them over so that they will not join the side of our enemies.”
I add: “The visit of Bundestag member Schwann to China has been widely
discussed in West Germany.” He repeats once again: “Anyone can study anything
in China. China is very interesting for Europeans.”
The conversation took place in a very relaxed, personal setting and made a deep
impression on me.

Notes

1. The notion of a “teaching chair” (perhaps referring to a chair professorship?) comes
to us from the German source. The Chinese rendered it jiangzuo, which is closer to the
meaning of a “lecture series.”
2. See text Sept. 4, 1956, note 8.
3. Weisenborn is probably referring to proposals made at the Eighth CPC Congress,
September 15–27, 1956, for the Second Five-Year Plan. The actual figures for the plan itself had
obviously not been made public at this point. On the proposals, see text Aug. 30, 1956, note 8.
4. The Third Five-Year Plan, as anticipated that time, would have begun in 1962,
following the completion of the Second Five-Year Plan. However, in reality it was not
launched until 1966.
5. The Chinese text here does not have a paragraph that can be found in the German and
Russian texts. It reads: “[Mao]: ‘West Germany produces 20 million tons annually. You
see, that is more. In Sweden the situation is that the per capita production is 2,000 tons.’ He
makes a mental calculation and after some thought elaborates that if these figures were
applied to China and were made to correspond to [the size of] its population, production
there would have to be 1.2 billion tons.”
It ought to be noted that the translation of these figures is not entirely certain. While the
German “milliarde” and “millionen,” which appear in the German text, translate as
“billion” and “million” respectively, the German term “billionen,” not expressed here,
translates as “trillion.” Mao may have been erroneous in his calculations, if Weisenborn
was correct in his recording, or else the error may have been on Weisenborn’s part. In any
case, if Mao had used the figure of 600 million for the Chinese population, which he was
wont to do at this time, the steel production in China would have to be 1.2 million tons to
match what he thought to be the per capita level of Sweden. Furthermore, in the German
text, the paragraph “In its Third . . . as West Germany” was spoken by Weisenborn, not by
Mao. This appears to make better sense than as presented in the Chinese text.
Also see text Dec. 8, 1956, note 44.

OCTOBER—DECEMBER 1956 / 155

6. In the German text, Mao turns to the secretary in question and reminds him (i.e., Mao
reminded the secretary, instead of instructing the secretary to remind him, Mao).
7. In the Chinese text, this title is rendered as <i>Sichuan lai de hao ren</i>, which translates
as “The good person from Sichuan.” We think there is a typographical error here, and that
the text should have read <i>Sichuan lai de hao furen</i>. The title <i>The Good Woman of Sichuan</i>
or <i>The Good Woman of Szechwan</i> is the commonly used English translation of the title of
Brecht’s drama. In the <i>Sonntag</i> (German) source, this is given as “Der gute Mensch von
Sezuan.”
8. Here, in the German text, one sentence is added: “The Soviet Union had many
successes after the revolution.”