Mao Zedong: The Bandung Conference [2] was a very good conference, the Bandung Conference was truly remarkable. In the past year or so, the entire world has undergone great changes. Is that not so?
Sukarno: Yes, that is indeed the case. No matter where I go, everyone mentions the Bandung Conference.
Mao: In the past, everyone mentioned the Geneva Conference [3] and the Bandung Conference at the same time. Now, the Geneva Conference and the Geneva spirit are seldom mentioned by anyone; all that remains is the Bandung Conference. We were all especially happy after reading your speech in the United States. To say such things in such a country is excellent. You represented all of Asia.
Su: I myself also believe I was speaking on behalf of Asia.
Mao: In fact, you represented Asia, Africa, and Latin America. Was the American reception alright?
Su: Generally speaking, the welcome from the American people was quite enthusiastic. However, most of the leaders of the American government were not very happy, because the things I said were things they did not like to hear. Whether they liked it or not, I still had to speak the facts. No matter where I went in the United States, reporters would ask what attitude Indonesia takes on the question of China entering the United Nations. Our reply was very firm: China must join the United Nations. We also added that if the United Nations does not have China, which represents six hundred million people, as a member, then the United Nations will become a place for performing farces.
Mao: Do you think it is better for China to enter the United Nations sooner or later?
Su: The sooner, the better for the United Nations.
Mao: We have thought about it from another angle, that not joining is not bad either.
Su: Indonesia believes the sooner the better.
Mao: Joining sooner or joining later, we must be prepared for both possibilities.
Su: It must be quick to be good.
Mao: We feel that a little slower is better.
Su: I would very much like to understand the Chairman's thinking.
Mao: We publicly say we want to join, and our friends are also helping us in this regard; this is our right. For the representative of six hundred million people not to participate, while Taiwan participates, is unfair. Right now it is not us representing Taiwan in the United Nations, but Taiwan representing us; this is improper. In the Geneva talks, we also mentioned this point to the United States, pointing out that they are wrong. However, this is not a topic of the Geneva talks. The topics of the Geneva talks are: the issue of civilian repatriation, the issue of lifting the embargo, the issue of people-to-people exchanges, and more importantly, the issue of eliminating the tense situation in the Taiwan region.
Su: I hope the Chairman will talk about why China is not in a hurry to join the United Nations.
Mao: Britain, the United States, and France are all imperialist countries, colonialist countries. For these countries, it is better for us to grant them legal status within our country a little later.
Su: But, the problem is that these three imperialist countries all harbor bad intentions. If countries that oppose imperialism do not participate in the United Nations, then the imperialist countries will become even more rampant.
Mao: We can oppose them from outside the United Nations.
Su: I still don't quite understand.
Mao: Britain was eager to establish diplomatic relations with us. We came up with a method called negotiation; on the question of how to establish diplomatic relations, the talks went on for five years. During this period, Britain's representative in China was a negotiating representative, not a legal diplomatic official. In the United Nations, Britain votes for Chiang Kai-shek, not for us. In this way, we have more reason to accuse Britain of playing both sides. Right now, we have semi-official diplomatic relations with Britain.
Su: But, the Chairman has not yet spoken about the United Nations issue.
Mao: I am in the process of explaining this principle. We are also in no hurry to establish diplomatic relations with countries like France and West Germany. Since they are not in a hurry, we are not in a hurry either. As for how many years to drag it out, we'll see! However many years they want to drag it out, we will drag it out for that long. The United States is the same. The United States does not want to establish diplomatic relations with China now, which is relatively good for us. The United States scolds us every day; our ears have grown accustomed to it. This brings us to the United Nations. The United States does not approve of our entering the United Nations; it wants to obstruct it.
Su: This issue can be discussed separately. The issue of China establishing diplomatic relations with Britain, France, West Germany, and the United States, and the issue of China joining the United Nations are two different matters. The imperialist countries want to control the United Nations. After China joins, it can oppose this attempt.
Mao: The problem is Taiwan.
Su: The Taiwan issue can be set aside. Taiwan and China are one and the same; the one who controls the mainland should represent China.
Mao: This is your opinion and our opinion. But the United States and the countries that follow the United States do not think this way.
Su: The problem can be solved this way: one country proposes that China join the United Nations, and other countries support it. This requires a struggle, and Indonesia is willing to participate in this struggle. If the People's Republic of China joins the United Nations, the person representing Taiwan will of course have no authority.
Mao: Does such a resolution require a simple majority or a two-thirds majority to pass?
Su: A two-thirds majority. If the General Assembly passes it with a two-thirds majority, the Security Council cannot veto it.
Mao: After the resolution is passed by the General Assembly, can we enter the Security Council? There is a veto power in the Security Council; the five great powers [4] need to be unanimous. Among these five great powers, one great power is called the United States, and a second great power is called Chiang Kai-shek.
Su: Regardless of whether the Security Council has veto power, once it is proposed, it will cause a struggle, which is always good.
Mao: We agree with this, but in the end, it will still be difficult to resolve.
Su: But world public opinion will be different. For example, if the General Assembly passes it with a two-thirds majority, and a great power in the Security Council vetoes it, then it has done a foolish thing and will certainly cause resentment.
Mao: Good, as a struggle, this should be done. However, there can only be one China in the United Nations, not "two Chinas," and that China is us. Well then, I just said we must be prepared for two possibilities. We must prepare to get in, together with you, for one more vote.
Su: How does the Chairman view a strategy where one China represents all of China, and the Taiwan clique represents Taiwan, as a transitional measure?
Mao: This method is not appropriate. We want to make an issue of this topic. As long as there is a tiny little Taiwan in the United Nations, we will not enter.
Su: But, this is only as a transitional stage, just like the relationship between West Irian [5] and Indonesia.
Mao: West Irian does not represent Indonesia. On the contrary, in the United Nations, Indonesia has a representative, West Irian does not.
Su: Can the issue of China and Taiwan be made like the issue of Indonesia and West Irian, that is to say, to treat Taiwan as a territory that China will recover?
Mao: Is there a representative of West Irian in the United Nations?
Su: What I am proposing is just a transitional measure!
Mao: We want to make an issue of this topic. If Taiwan has a representative in the United Nations, we will not enter for ten thousand years.
Su: That is to say, for the People's Republic of China to enter the United Nations, Chiang Kai-shek must withdraw, and there is no place for a representative of Taiwan.
Mao: Correct. (Turning to Ambassador Huang Zhen [6]) Has the China Peking Opera Troupe been to Indonesia to perform? Have they performed "Yandang Mountain"?
Huang Zhen: They have performed it.
Mao: In this play, two factions are at war. The conservative faction defends the city, the revolutionary faction surrounds the city, and later flies into the city. A British newspaper drew a cartoon saying that China entering the United Nations is like "Yandang Mountain," it has to fly in, which is to say, we have to fight our way in.
Su: The member states that have already joined the United Nations can unite and demand that the issue of China's entry into the United Nations be placed on the agenda.
Mao: To drive out Chiang Kai-shek's representative.
Su: This is the ultimate goal to be achieved.
Mao: If Chiang Kai-shek's representative does not leave, we will not go. We still have many issues we can make.
Su: I raise the question this way in order to understand China's attitude.
Mao: This is precisely our attitude. If the UN General Assembly passes the resolution with a two-thirds majority, but we cannot enter the Security Council, then we will have a target for struggle, and there will still be time. For us, it would be best to wait another five or six years. After six years, our second five-year plan will be completed. It would be best to wait eleven years, by which time our third five-year plan will be completed. Right now, we are a weak country, not a strong country. The United States fears the Soviet Union, but it does not fear us; it knows our foundation. China is a large country, but not a strong country, because we have nothing, only a population of six hundred million. People look down on us, and moreover, they have a big thing in their hands called the atomic bomb. We don't even have a small one. Therefore, why be in a hurry?
Su: The Chairman just said that the United States does not fear China. In fact, this is not so. The United States does fear China, but this is not because China is already industrialized or has the atomic bomb.
Mao: It fears our politics.
Su: Yes, it fears China's politics, fears China's ideology.
Mao: It fears that we will spread it, which is not to its advantage.
Su: The United States does not approve of China entering the United Nations precisely because the United States fears China.
Mao: The United States is a little bit afraid of China. To be honest, we are also a little bit afraid of the United States.
Su: Australia is also a little bit afraid of Indonesia. This is not because Indonesia is already industrialized, but because if Indonesia recovers West Irian, East Irian will also become a problem.
Mao: The principle you speak of is very correct. Where do you think the focus of our work, of making friends, should be placed? I believe it should be placed on the three continents, that is, Asia, Africa, and Latin America, plus a large part of Europe. What's left is only a small part of Europe, half of the Americas, and one Australia. They do not approve of us; we are prepared to wait for them for a hundred years.
Su: Which countries do not approve of China?
Mao: Britain, it still votes for Chiang Kai-shek now. As long as it does so for one day, we will not establish diplomatic relations with it for one day. If it votes for Chiang Kai-shek for a hundred years, we will not establish diplomatic relations with it for a hundred years, only exchange chargés d'affaires. France and Belgium also do not recognize us, and also Portugal and Spain.
Su: As I mentioned in my speech in Ulaanbaatar yesterday, the majority of people in the world, almost all of them, approve of China entering the United Nations. If some countries introduce a motion demanding that the United Nations admit China, and attach a condition saying that China must join the United Nations, otherwise the United Nations will become a place for performing farces, and these countries will withdraw. In this way, if the United States objects, it will have done a foolish thing.
Mao: We completely approve of doing this, but there is no need to withdraw from the United Nations; the struggle can be carried out within the United Nations.
Su: This struggle is complex; we need to consult with each other.
Mao: Correct. In the end, the result of the struggle will be that Chiang Kai-shek leaves. At that time, we will fly into the United Nations, and the play will be over. However, we must be prepared for the second possibility, which is that we are not allowed in for many years.
Su: This is almost the same as our problem of recovering West Irian. In Indonesia, some people advocate setting aside the West Irian issue, first considering how to build up the country, and waiting until we are strong, then West Irian will naturally return. My view is not like this. I believe we should carry out construction on the one hand, and on the other hand, struggle for the recovery of West Irian.
Mao: This is the same as the Taiwan issue. On the one hand, we must build ourselves up to be strong; on the other hand, we must recover Taiwan as soon as possible. Like West Irian, there are two timings for recovering Taiwan. The first is sooner, which is of course the best. The second is later, which is also acceptable; we can still sleep and will not suffer from insomnia.
Su: But, will this not affect the people's fighting spirit?
Mao: The problem is not to be solved entirely by us. For us, of course, sooner is better.
Su: Should it not be considered that the people's fighting spirit is like a fire, if not fanned, it will be extinguished?
Mao: The fire is burning, but there are still two timings: one is sooner, the other is later.
Su: From this point of view, I agree. We should carry out construction on the one hand, and at the same time continue to struggle.
Mao: Sooner is of course best, later is also acceptable.
Su: Of course it cannot be done in a day or two.
Mao: Not in a day or two, nor in a year or two, but in eight or ten years, or even more.
Su: On this point I agree. The recovery of West Irian is not a matter of five or six years; it will take even longer. But when speaking to the people, we must say, continue the struggle, recover West Irian next year.
Mao: I agree with you ninety-nine percent. We also publicize the recovery of Taiwan every day, only we do not say tomorrow or next year. We demand to enter the United Nations every day, but we do not specify a time. We say every day that we want to establish diplomatic relations with all countries in the world, including the United States, but we do not specify a time. When Chinese people do things, they just don't specify a time. Some people ridicule us, saying that Chinese people are always slow. This is precisely our way.
Su: This is a tactic.

No, it is indeed so. The resolution of the problem is not decided by our side; it can only happen when the other side changes.
Who is the other side?
Britain, the United States, France, Taiwan, West Irian, the Netherlands. The problem is that their chiefs of staff are their own people, not our people. If Foreign Minister Abdulgami were to become the foreign minister of the United States, that would be good.
People in West Germany are saying the same thing now. They say that if Adenauer steps down, the whole of West Germany will change.
If it changes and proposes to establish diplomatic relations with us, we will have no reason to refuse.
The Chairman's words are very insightful, all very practical. Let us now summarize: Does the Chinese side believe we should raise the issue of China's entry into the United Nations earlier or later?
Raise it early.
That's good.
It should be raised once every year. Whichever year it succeeds, that will be the end of it.
To succeed, it will still require a struggle. Raising it early has many benefits; it can make various countries show their stance and draw clear lines.
Completely right. The issue of the embargo is also like this. We demand the lifting of the embargo every day, but it's also fine if it's lifted a bit later. In fact, it would be best if it were lifted a few more years later. To tell you the truth, we don't have many things, nothing more than some apples, peanuts, pig bristles, and soybeans. Even if the embargo is not lifted, we can still sleep and eat our fill. We can wait six years, wait eleven years. By that time, when the embargo is lifted, China is recognized, and China is admitted into the United Nations, and then they come to China for a look, they will regret it. That is to say, they will find that they are already powerless.
Do they not understand China's development?
They understand, but they are contradictory. On the one hand, they say that doing this now is falling into a trap, but on the other hand, they have other difficulties that make them want to contend with us. Because this opening must not be breached; once it is breached, the waters of the Yellow River will flow. For them, it would be a great loss of face. Our thinking is, it's good to be recognized earlier, but even better to be recognized later. By that time, when they come to China, it will be too late to repent, and they will be powerless. Moreover, we have a second point, which is to make them lose face before the whole world. Because it is they who do not recognize us, not we who do not recognize them. We want to establish diplomatic relations with them every day, but they will not establish diplomatic relations with us. It is not that we do not want to enter the United Nations, but that they will not let us in. We demand they lift the embargo every day, but they do not lift it. As a result, the United States will be put in a completely passive position, and all the reasons will be in our hands, in the hands of our friends. To deal with the Americans, one must have some methods; one must have two lines, one is not enough. The first is to struggle resolutely, to shout every day; this is your method. The second is not to be anxious; this line is not published in the newspapers. We have a similarly subtle relationship with Jiang Jieshi. We want to restore friendly and cooperative relations with him. We have cooperated twice in the past, why can't we cooperate a third time? But Jiang Jieshi opposes it. He opposes it every day, so we say every day that we want to cooperate with him. This puts our Chairman Jiang in a difficult position, and his interior is in the process of disintegrating.
The American people and the American ruling class are also not of one mind. There are people in the U.S. Congress who approve of China's entry into the United Nations.
Not a majority approval.
But some people already approve.
We are happy to see that some people approve. At this Eighth National Congress of the Communist Party of China, we said in both the political report and the resolutions that we are willing to establish diplomatic relations with all countries. However, these reports and resolutions do not contain the content of the second line I just told you about. Because we are good friends, I am letting you know the real story.