(Not reviewed by the person concerned)

(September 24, 1956)

Time: September 24, 1956

Participants: Mongolian side: Damba (Head of Delegation), Tsend, Ochirbat (Ambassador), Khashganbai, Tserenjab Sambuu

Chinese side: Wang Jiaxiang

Chairman Mao (hereinafter referred to as Chairman): You must be very tired these past few days?

Damba (hereinafter referred to as Da): No, not tired, we are very comfortable.

Chairman: The Mongolian comrades are good comrades, good friends. You are a friendly country, a friendly party!

(The Chairman then inquired after Tsedenbal)

Da: He is very well. He and Comrade Sambuu send you their greetings!

Chairman: Thank you! Please convey my greetings to them on my behalf!

Da: Thank you! We are grateful for your assistance to us.

Chairman: No, don't say that! China is a big country; this is our duty, our right. I often hear you speak like this, and I often see it written in documents, and it makes me feel uncomfortable. We should fulfill our responsibilities, because for three hundred years our ancestors exploited you and oppressed you, leaving behind many debts. Therefore, today we must repay these debts. In the past, the minority nationalities within our own country were also oppressed, and we must also repay our debts to them; this is our duty.

Of our country's Tibetan population, 1.2 million people are directly under Lhasa, while the other 1 million are distributed in Qinghai, Yunnan, Sichuan, Gansu, and other places. What is the religious situation in Mongolia? Are there many lamas? What is the total population?

Da: In the past there were many, but now there are very few. In the early days of the revolution, some lamas did bad things. They were dealt with, and some took part in labor and other work. Now there are still a very small number of lamas. The total population is 800,000.

Chairman: How is the development of industry and agriculture in Mongolia?

Da: Before the revolution, we were a very backward country. During the revolutionary years, thanks to the warm assistance of the Soviet Union, our people have made good progress in industry, animal husbandry, and culture and education.

Chairman: Has Mongolian agriculture also developed?

Da: We just started developing agriculture this year.

Chairman: Is there enough water?

Da: Water is very scarce in our country.

Chairman: What is the rainfall like?

Da: The average annual rainfall is 120 to 300 millimeters (300 millimeters in forest zones, and 120 millimeters in desert areas).

Chairman: What about digging wells?

Da: Digging wells in desert areas is difficult.

Chairman: In that case, wouldn't it be possible to build some reservoirs to store water for use?

Da: It is very difficult in desert zones. The water cannot be stored; it quickly seeps into the ground.

Chairman: What major rivers flow through your territory?

Da: The Selenge River, the Onon River, the Kherlen River, etc.

Chairman: Which river flows towards the northwest?

Da: The Onon River and the Kherlen River.

Chairman: Where is the birthplace of Mongolian history and culture?

Da: The region of the Onon and Kherlen rivers.

Chairman: Can't you build projects like sluice gates, reservoirs, and flood diversion channels on these rivers?

Da: The people and we all urgently desire to do so, but we lack the capacity.

Chairman: We also have some difficulties at present. But in a few years, we will help you in this regard.

Da: Thank you.

Chairman: This year, Hebei suffered from floods, and 30 million mu of farmland were affected. China's water conservancy work has not yet been able to develop greatly; it may take another 10 years to resolve. However, our assistance to you in this area will not need to wait 10 years.

Da: Last year you gave us a great deal of assistance, sending 13,000 workers and technicians, which played a driving role in industrial and other construction. And this year you also provided a gratuitous sum of 160 million rubles. Therefore, the Mongolian people are very elated and inspired.

Chairman: No, no, as I said above, this is our duty. Those amounts are too small; whenever you mention them, I feel ashamed.

Da: The Jining–Erenhot railway line has played a great role in our country's development.

Chairman: How is Mongolian agriculture now?

Da: It has developed somewhat compared to the past, but due to a lack of manpower, a large amount of land remains uncultivated to this day.

Chairman: That is not good; you should reclaim wasteland. Have you settled down?

Da: This would be very beneficial for the development of our country's agriculture and animal husbandry, but we have not yet settled down.

Chairman: This cannot be achieved all at once; it must be done gradually, because the grass in one place is limited. A similar situation exists in Anhui Province in our country. Once settled, you can also grow vegetables and crops, and only then can the population increase.

Da: Correct! (Pointing to Tsend) He is the Chairman of the State Planning Commission. Your suggestions will be of great help to our country's future planning work.

Chairman: To develop agriculture and animal husbandry, you must first develop water conservancy work. This includes projects like sluice gates, reservoirs, and irrigation channels. On the other hand, pasture grass is very important. For you, "grass is oil." Therefore, you should increase pasture grass, and you should adopt deep plowing methods, so that the grass can grow tall and abundant. Then the conditions for settling down will exist.

Da: Yes! We value these remarks of yours.

Chairman: You can start the preparatory work for water conservancy projects earlier. This includes geological survey work, manpower, material resources, and so on. Financial resources are not that important. The most important, the most critical thing is manpower.

You should first undertake the most urgently needed work. For example: halfway along the road from Ulaanbaatar to the western border, you built a modern highway, but it is rarely used. This is not very necessary.

Da: It has only been 7 years since the founding of the People's Republic of China. Before that, the peoples of our two countries did not have much contact. Although it has been 35 years since the success of our country's revolution, because our country was very backward in the past, we have not been able to develop well during these 35 years (although there have been achievements). Therefore, it can be said that our country's industry and agriculture have not developed well.

Chairman: You should be self-sufficient.

Da: At present, many daily necessities cannot be produced by ourselves.

Chairman: This is not good; you should expand industry in this area.

Da: The aggression of Japanese imperialism against our country also affected development in this area.

Chairman: How many troops do you still have?

Da: Nearly one division.

Chairman: That is already sufficient. Now, you have no enemies around you.

Da: We are now training the demobilized personnel of this unit to become drivers, construction workers, etc.

Chairman: That is very good. This is a production army! What about the written language?

Da: Now we all use the new (Russian) script. All adults are literate.

Chairman: Very good. Inner Mongolia is also doing this.

Da: So it is said. In terms of script, we can also help Inner Mongolia.

Chairman: Yes, that is very necessary. Do you have direct contact with Inner Mongolia?

Da: There is no direct contact at present! Contact is only made through the central authorities.

Chairman: Is direct contact not needed?

Da: Direct contact is needed, but formal procedures have not been completed.

Chairman: You can do it. You can establish your own consulate in Inner Mongolia. Doing this won't cost much! You can just send a few people from your embassy. The Soviet Union does it this way too. They have consulates in Tianjin, Shanghai, Shenyang, Guangzhou, and other places.

However, these matters I mentioned are my personal views, and perhaps they are not correct. Because I have not consulted with the government or the responsible comrades of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs; likewise, you have not consulted with your own government. But I believe these things can be realized.

Da: Thank you! We have never even thought about the historical "debts." We only thank you.

Chairman: No! The debts must be repaid. This is us making up for the debts of our ancestors.

(During the conversation, the Chairman again talked about the history of the Mongolian nation)

Ochirbat: Oh! It is said to be so!

Chairman: There was once a High Cart tribe in Siberia. It is said they all sat on tall carts. Was the High Cart tribe your ancestors?

Da: The elders all say: when the ancient ancestors moved, they used very tall carts to pull all their belongings.

Chairman: Do you have any records on this aspect?

Da: Regarding records before the 13th century, there are none at present, not yet. There are some records from after the 13th century. The Soviet Union is helping us with this work. Mongolian history before the 13th century is closely related to Chinese history, therefore, in the future, we may still need to conduct research together with you on this.

Chairman: Very good. Today we talked about many things concerning history.

Da: Our future is very broad, because we have the assistance of the Soviet Union and China. In the future, we must work even harder.

Chairman: You should develop well.

Da: I once again express our heartfelt gratitude. Your assistance to us is great, fraternal assistance. We cannot regard it as a "debt."

Chairman: But that is how we think. We coexist equally with all countries. In the past, we oppressed you, so now we must admit our mistake to you. Not only towards you, but also towards the minority nationalities within our country. In the past, we oppressed them. Therefore, if we do not admit our mistake now, we cannot eradicate Han chauvinist thinking and achieve national equality. This is well-founded; these are not just fine words. Is it not true that we oppressed you in the past? Yet you have not a single word of complaint now. The assistance we give you is very small. This is repaying a debt, not aid. Only in this way can we trust each other. And when you call it aid, that is also good; by saying so, you also express equality.

Da: We express our thanks for all the assistance you have given us in the past and will give in the future! The working peoples of China and Mongolia have always been friendly. The things done by the reactionary classes are another matter.

Chairman: Some Chinese workers have gone to Mongolia. You should conduct propaganda work among them, so that they do not fall into the error of Han chauvinist thinking, so that they do not act like overlords.

If Chinese workers or staff there make mistakes, you should report it to us.

Da: Most of the people are very good. Although a small number sometimes have shortcomings, it is not intentional. Besides, everyone has some shortcomings.

Chairman: They should be educated. If someone commits a serious mistake, they should be punished according to law. You should stand up with the attitude of masters and educate them. (The Chairman pointed at Ochirbat and said: The other foreign ambassadors are all full of vigor, and your bearing is not imposing; you should also be full of vigor like them.)

Da: Among the Chinese workers in our country, there are also 200 Party members. They lead the other workers in working very well.

Chairman: Good! How many workers are there in total?

Da: Including family members, 13,000 people in total. Some of the former overseas Chinese have returned home, and now only four to five thousand remain. But these people are all old now.

Chairman: Do Mongolians direct them?

Tsend: Yes! Mongolians direct them with the attitude of masters.

Chairman: Are there any carpenters among the Chinese workers?

Da: Yes. In addition, there are brick makers and various other trades.

Chairman: Do they take on Mongolian apprentices?

Da: They are taking on apprentices separately!

Chairman: In the future, in agriculture, we can assist you with manpower. The number could be 100,000, or 200,000, or even up to 300,000. Some of them could also help you with animal husbandry.

Da: Yes, but we should make full preparations and plans in advance. Otherwise, after receiving those people, difficulties will arise in housing and other aspects.

Chairman: Right! This work should be carried out gradually. You have a population of 800,000, so you can develop agriculture and build water conservancy projects.

Da: We have over 52,000 workers.

Chairman: Over 50,000 workers out of a population of 800,000 – that number is not small. Are there any who use machinery?

Da: Semi-automatic machines are used.

Chairman: Are there any automated ones?

Da: No.

Chairman: Then some can be installed in the future. We can talk about this issue with each other in the future.

Da: Thanks to your assistance, we now have a match factory and a porcelain factory. But the matchboxes needed by the match factory are all made by hand.

Chairman: What is the production quantity of matches?

Da: The whole country needs a total of 20 million boxes of matches. This target can be reached next year. At the same time, domestic sales are not very good.

Chairman: How is your market?

Da: There is a market, but it is very small.

Chairman: We have had a very good talk today.

Da: Thank you for your concern for us, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to receive us, thank you for the highly significant suggestions you have made to us, thank you for the very beneficial words you have spoken to us. When we return, we will take what you said this evening as a guide for our future work. As we part, I once again, on behalf of the Central Committee of our Party and all our people, extend to you our heartfelt respect.

--- Notes

Chairman: You Mongols are the third nation. The first nation was the Xiongnu. They occupied Xinjiang and the land north of the Yellow River, and some even crossed the Yellow River. The second nation was the Turks. They occupied more than a dozen nations including Armenia, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Egypt, and Greece, and established a great empire. But this nation was later defeated by the Mongols. Therefore, the Mongols are the third nation. (Because the note-taker did not understand the general history of Mongolia, this passage could not be fully recorded.) The origin of your ancestors has not yet been clarified. Was it in Siberia?