(Not reviewed by Chairman Mao)

(December 8, 1955)

[Ambassador R. K. Nehru (Ratan Kumar Nehru) was India's ambassador to China from November 6, 1955, to January 23, 1958. He was a relative of Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru.]

Time: 5:30 PM, December 8, 1955
Place: Hall of Diligent Government, Zhongnanhai
Participants:
Indian side—R. K. Nehru and wife
Chinese side—Zhang Hanfu, Chen Jiakang, Ke Hua

Chairman Mao: I am very happy to see the increase in India's population, and the development and strengthening of India's industry, agriculture, national defense, culture, and all other aspects.

Ambassador R. K. Nehru (hereinafter referred to as Nehru): I am also very happy to see China becoming more prosperous and developed day by day under Your Excellency's wise leadership.

Chairman Mao: We have just begun. Our industry and transportation are worse than India's. India's scientific and cultural levels are also higher than ours.

Mrs. Nehru: The spirit of the Chinese people is great. This spirit can overcome all difficulties.

Chairman Mao: Yes, we have many things to do, and we are willing to do them. China is a large country, but not a rich and strong country. We cannot manufacture airplanes, automobiles, or tanks—nothing. We only have a large population.

Nehru: Wealth and strength are based on the spirit of the people. If the people have the desire to be rich and strong, the country can become powerful. At present, both India and China lag behind the other great powers.

Chairman Mao: Among the Asian and African countries, except for Japan, all are still very backward.

Nehru: None of us aspire to Japan's position.

Mrs. Nehru: Japan can build airplanes and automobiles, and has a powerful navy, but none of these have made Japan a great power.

Chairman Mao: Japan did not know how to use its wealth and strength. Recently, I said in a conversation with some Japanese people: It was a good thing that Japan was defeated, because it lost its navy and colonies, and thus has the right to criticize the United States and Great Britain. In the words of an old Chinese saying, this is a blessing in disguise.

Mrs. Nehru: Great suffering can temper a person. There is a proverb in India: Gold must pass through fire before it can become pure gold.

Chairman Mao: The Chinese proverb is: True gold fears no fire.

Nehru: Although we have only been in China for one month and three days, we have been to many places, such as Xi'an, Chengdu, and Chongqing.

Chairman Mao: You have been to more places than I have. I have not been to Xi'an or Chengdu. I was only forced by Jiang Jieshi to go to Chongqing once. I have not been to the Three Gorges either. We were confined in the mountains by Jiang Jieshi for more than ten years, and in the last six years, I have had no time to go to the Northwest. If the railway from Chengdu to Xi'an is completed, I could make a trip.

Nehru: I hear this railway will be completed in a few months. This railway is very important for Sichuan Province. Sichuan is very rich and its agriculture is very developed.

Chairman Mao: Sichuan Province has a population of 60 million. It is our rear area.

Mrs. Nehru: Sichuan seems to be the nerve center of China, just as our home, the United Provinces, is the nerve center of India. That province has a population of 65 million.

Nehru: Sichuan was the first province in China to have contact with India. During the Han Dynasty, a Chinese emperor sent a general to the Western Regions, and as a result, silk transported from Sichuan via India was discovered there.

Chairman Mao: Yes.

Mrs. Nehru: In fact, the ancient ties between India and China are even earlier than what is recorded in the history books. We recently heard that there were once Indian immigrants living in the coastal areas of Fujian in ancient times.

Nehru: We have already taken up a lot of Your Excellency's time...

Chairman Mao: Thinking of leaving already? Let's talk a little longer. It is easy to talk with Indians, because we don't have to be on guard when we talk. It doesn't matter if we misspeak; you won't seize upon these mistakes to fix us, and likewise, we won't fix you. I have said these words to Prime Minister Nehru.

Nehru: We feel as if we are in our own home in China.

Chairman Mao: This is because we have many points in common. Not only are our positions the same, but none of us do things that harm others to benefit ourselves.

Nehru: We have been like this for over 2,000 years.

Mrs. Nehru: These 2,000-plus years are a history of eternal friendship between us. We hope Your Excellency can visit India to further consolidate this friendship.

Chairman Mao: If there is an opportunity, I would be very willing to go to India.

Nehru: There is an indescribable friendship between the Chinese and Indian peoples, and we do not have this kind of feeling for Europeans.

Chairman Mao: That is very natural. First of all, Europeans look down on us, which makes things difficult.

Nehru: We, on the other hand, have a lot of experience with European colonialism. For example, we have the Goa issue.

Chairman Mao: We also have the Macao issue.

Nehru: The Americans support Portugal's occupation of Goa, but they did not support Portugal's occupation of Macao. This is a special "favor" for India.

Chairman Mao: No, yesterday at a press conference, Dulles also expressed support for Portugal's position in Macao.

Mrs. Nehru: Then it can be said that we have both been "taken care of." This makes our relationship even closer.

Chairman Mao: The United States, Great Britain, France, Belgium, Portugal, the Netherlands—these colonial countries are vigorously strengthening their defenses, but they have no reason to. They are the debtor nations, and we are the creditor nations. Our political capital is great. A country that only has steel but no political capital is bound to collapse. History has already provided much proof, such as Hitler, Mussolini, and Japan, which all collapsed. When the Soviet revolution had just succeeded, it also had only over 4 million tons of steel. How many tons of steel does India produce annually now?

Nehru: Currently it is 2.4 million tons, about the same as China's output. When the second five-year plan is completed, it can reach 6 million tons. And we will concentrate our efforts on developing heavy industry and increasing electricity generation. 75% of investment is allocated to heavy industry.

Chairman Mao: India is a large country with a vast domestic market. Indonesia is also a large country with a domestic market. Both India and Indonesia can establish their own industries. But the problem of agriculture must also be solved. The United States also relies mainly on its domestic market economically. From the very beginning, the United States implemented a capitalist agricultural system, establishing large farms, so its domestic market is large.

Nehru: The United States has a large amount of virgin land, and in the beginning, it had investment from Europe. The United States does not have the problem of a large population and little land like China and India.

Chairman Mao: Does India have little land?

Nehru: Yes, the situation is similar to China's.

Chairman Mao: The small-peasant economy cannot withstand natural disasters, and it produces very little grain and industrial raw materials for the state. By organizing, it is possible to use machinery for farming and to develop agriculture rapidly.

Nehru: Machinery cannot be used in paddy fields, but it can be in wheat fields.

Chairman Mao: We are not yet relying on machinery, but on getting organized. It is estimated that in seven or eight years, production can be doubled.

Nehru: This is the inevitable result of cooperativization. India has similar experience. In India, the amount of land per person is very small, and it is very fragmented. We started the cooperativization movement 50 years ago. I was in charge of the cooperativization movement more than 20 years ago. The first step was to establish credit cooperatives to eliminate usury; the second step was for peasants to exchange land with each other to concentrate the land and reduce the phenomenon of land fragmentation; the third step was to establish producers' cooperatives. So far, the progress of cooperativization is not as great as in China.

Mrs. Nehru: In India, less than half of the agricultural population has joined cooperatives, and women are not as active in joining as Chinese women are. That is why before coming to China, I mainly worked in the countryside, educating rural women to join cooperatives.

Nehru: There is another kind of cooperative in India. Seventy or eighty villages form a unit to organize a cooperative...

Chairman Mao: Do they use machinery for farming?

Nehru: They use some machinery, but it cannot be used in paddy fields.

Chairman Mao: We should develop a kind of small machine suitable for use in paddy fields.

Nehru: Japan has a very good method of cultivation. After its implementation, output doubled.

Chairman Mao: What method?

Nehru: Implementing the close-planting method for transplanting rice seedlings.

Chairman Mao: I have heard that Japan has a plum-blossom-shaped planting method, where seven or eight seedlings are planted together to form a cluster. This method is very good and worth studying. Our method of transplanting seedlings is to plant them one by one.

Nehru: India has studied Japan's planting methods very carefully and has promoted them.

Chairman Mao: What the Ambassador just said is an inspiration to me. When there are good methods, everyone should help each other and study from each other.

Nehru: Our two countries can send agricultural experts to each other to learn from one another. From what I have seen, the grain output in China's Sichuan region is higher than India's output.

Chairman Mao: Very good. The output in China's Sichuan and Zhejiang is high. Near Shantou in Guangdong, one mu of land can produce 500 kilograms of grain.

Nehru: Currently in India, there are two types of state-owned farms: the first type is small farms, whose main task is to guide peasants on how to farm; the second type is the large farms that Bulganin and Khrushchev visited, which use machinery for farming.

Source: *Newly Discovered Speeches of Mao Zedong from Secret Archives*, edited by Song Yongyi, Guoshi Press, July 2018

With thanks to Vissarion for collecting and organizing.