Conversation with Nym Wales[1]

(June 24, July 4, August 13, 1937)

(1) The political attitude and future of Chinese intellectuals. In the past, some intellectuals stood on the side of the Guomindang, and some on the side of the Communist Party. Now there is a common objective, and everyone will stand on the side of the Anti-Japanese National United Front. "On the basis of the Anti-Japanese National United Front, it is possible to unite the vast majority of students and intellectuals; only a very small number of rightists will waver." This united front is directed against the pro-Japanese clique and Japanese imperialism. Within it, on the one hand are the workers, peasants, and petty bourgeoisie, and on the other hand is the bourgeoisie. They have common ground, so they can unite; they also have their own distinct interests, so there are still contradictions and struggles within the united front.

The future of Chinese intellectuals is determined by the internal and external situation of China. There are two possibilities for the War of Resistance Against Japan: either the Japanese aggressors will win, or the Chinese anti-Japanese front will win; the prospect of the second possibility is the establishment of a democratic republic. In the process of establishing a democratic republic, the problems of the intellectuals, such as improving living standards, and the problems of the bourgeoisie, such as avoiding the danger of colonization, will all be resolved. After the democratic republic is established, the next

[1] Nym Wales was the pen name of the American journalist and writer Helen Foster Snow, the former wife of Edgar Snow. She visited Yan'an in 1937 and interviewed Mao Zedong on three separate occasions. Based on the interview records from that visit, she later wrote books including *Inside Red China*, *Lives of Revolution: Biographies*, and *The Chinese Communists: Sketches and Autobiographies of the Old Guard*. This conversation is selected from *Inside Red China*.

task will be to carry out the socialist revolution. It is impossible for China to become an imperialist country or a fully capitalist country.

(2) How China can escape capitalism and transition to socialism. China is a semi-colonial country. The bourgeoisie is weak and powerless and cannot lead the national democratic revolutionary movement against imperialism and feudalism. In China, without the leadership of the proletariat, it is impossible for any revolution to succeed. This condition makes it possible for China to skip over capitalism and enter socialism in the future. The current war is a war against imperialism and fascism, a revolutionary war, and victory will certainly belong to the side of revolution; the existence of the Soviet Union will have a decisive influence not only on China but also on other countries of the world; coupled with the leadership of the proletariat—based on these three conditions, our conclusion is: China can avoid capitalism and directly realize socialism, but this will be a considerably long period. We are prepared to carry out a protracted struggle. In the process of development, it is impossible to avoid a certain degree of development of capitalism, and it is also necessary, because it is one of the forces resisting imperialism. Through industrial development, it will strengthen the leadership and power of the proletariat.

(1) On the question of China's various classes. Many of China's bankers are compradors and semi-compradors. Small and medium-sized bankers have no connection with imperialism. T. V. Soong and H. H. Kung are bankers of state capital. The interests of a section of the landlords and compradors have the most direct connection with Japan; they may become traitors. China's petty bourgeoisie and intellectuals have played an important role in the revolution. In a semi-colonial society, intellectuals, as appendages, are in a position where their jobs are not secure. Students are a very important part of the social revolution, but they do not play a decisive role; only the proletariat and the peasantry play such a role. The peasantry is a class situated between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. Under the leadership of the bourgeoisie, they will follow the bourgeoisie;

under the leadership of the proletariat, they will follow the proletariat. We call landless peasants the rural proletariat, and peasants who do not have enough land to sustain their livelihood the semi-proletariat. The Red Army is mainly composed of poor peasants and the urban and rural proletariat, and is led by the proletariat. The landlords are a four-in-one entity; they are landlords, merchants, tax collectors, but not necessarily all are usurers. The forms of landlord oppression of the peasants include rent, usury, taxation, and commodity prices. The Guomindang is an alliance of landlords, the bourgeoisie, and a section of the upper petty bourgeoisie. They have the possibility of opposing imperialism, and also the possibility of compromising with imperialism, depending on the attitude adopted by imperialism. Chiang Kai-shek represents the landlords and the bourgeoisie, including the comprador and national bourgeoisie. When the Guomindang and the Communist Party cooperate on the issue of resisting Japan, it is possible for class relations to change, and the pro-Japanese clique and the capitulationist clique may decrease.

(2) The nature of the movement led by the Chinese Communist Party. Its basic nature is a communist movement. Only after passing through the democratic stage and reaching the communist stage can it enter the realm of communism. As mentioned earlier, because it must be led by the proletariat, it must therefore be led by its party.

(1) The question of negotiations between the Communist Party and the Guomindang. The Red Army has just received orders from Nanjing to proceed to the anti-Japanese front under the command of the Nanjing Government; Commander-in-Chief Zhu De has already gone to Nanjing to attend the ongoing National Defense Conference, but Chiang Kai-shek has not yet permitted the publication of a political manifesto by the two parties. Because of Chiang Kai-shek's delays, the Red Army has not yet been reorganized. Nanjing fears that once the manifesto is published, it will provoke a strong reaction from Japanese imperialism. We demand earlier publication, but Nanjing does not agree. Many issues between the Guomindang and the Communist Party remain unresolved. For example, Nanjing demands that the commander-in-chief of the army and the head of the political department be appointed by Nanjing; we have refused. And some of our demands, such as the release of political prisoners, granting freedom of speech and the press, allowing

the Communist Party to work openly in the White areas, and publishing the manifesto, have all been accepted by the Nanjing side, but have not yet been implemented.

(2) The question of waging war against Japan. The Communist Party demands immediate war against Japan. The policy of Japanese imperialism will determine the timing of the outbreak of this war. There are two possibilities for the future of the war: first, victory; second, defeat. How can we achieve victory? We must fight bravely with full confidence, persist in the struggle, and we must realize the ten demands put forward by the Communist Party. In this way, we will certainly be victorious. If we do not do this, we will be defeated.

Mao Zedong and foreign friends in Yan'an.

June 1937, Mao Zedong in Yan'an with American journalists. From left: Owen Lattimore, Ye Fei, Mao Zedong, Arianis, T. A. Bisson, Nym Wales.