July 13, [19]37, Security's conversation with Mr. Mao on special issues.

I asked: In practice, if the Chinese revolution is victorious, will the Comintern or a similar organization be used to maintain economic and political relations between Soviet China and Soviet Russia? Or will there be a real merger of some kind of government?

Mao replied: I think this is a purely hypothetical question. I have already told you that the Red Army is not seeking a monopoly of political power now, but is seeking to unite the whole country to resist Japanese imperialism. The Comintern is an organization where advanced elements of the world proletariat gather their respective experiences to benefit all revolutionary people in the world. It is neither an administrative organization, nor is it any political power except in an advisory capacity. Institutionally, it is not much different from the Second International, although there are great differences in content. Just as no one says that a country with a social democratic party forming a cabinet is a dictatorship of the Second International, it is also ridiculous to say that a country with a communist party is a dictatorship of the Comintern. In the Soviet Union, the Communist Party holds political power, that is, in that country, the Comintern does not govern, and has no direct political power over the people. Similarly, it can be said that although the Chinese Communist Party is a member of the Comintern, this certainly does not mean that Soviet China is ruled by Moscow or the Comintern. We are certainly not fighting for a liberated China to hand over the country to Moscow! The Chinese Communist Party is merely a political party in China, and in its victory, it will have to speak for the entire nation. It cannot speak for the Russian people, nor can it rule for the Comintern, but only for the interests of the Chinese masses. Only where the interests of the Chinese masses coincide with the interests of the Russian masses can it be said to be "obedient" to Moscow's "will." But the basis of this common interest will expand astonishingly once the Chinese masses gain democratic political power and are liberated socially and economically, like their Russian brothers. When Soviet governments are established in many countries, the question of a Soviet international union may arise, and how this question will be resolved will be very interesting. But today I cannot formulate a formula in advance, as this question has not been, and cannot be, resolved in advance. In today's world, as economic and cultural exchanges between countries and nations are becoming increasingly close, such a union also seems highly desirable, if achieved on a voluntary basis. However, the obvious last point is extremely important. Such a world union can succeed only if each nation enjoys the right to join or withdraw according to the will of its own people, its sovereignty remains intact, and it is certainly not due to Moscow's "orders." No communist has ever thought otherwise, and at the same time, the myth of "domination from Moscow" is purely an invention of fascists and counter-revolutionaries. The past and present relations between Outer Mongolia and the Soviet Union have always been based on the principle of complete equality. When the Chinese revolution succeeds, the Outer Mongolian Republic will automatically become part of the Chinese Federation due to its own will. The Hui and Tibetan peoples, similarly, will also establish autonomous republics and join the Chinese Federation. Unequal treatment of ethnic minorities, as practiced by the Kuomintang, cannot find a place in the Soviet program, nor can it find a place in the program of a democratic republic.

I asked: Please explain why the Soviet Union's victorious assistance to Soviet China is fundamentally different from imperialism's past activities in China. Why, in your opinion, is the accusation of "red imperialism" absurd?

Mao replied: Some people say that fascists have no creative ability. I cannot fully agree with this. Because they have indeed created their own product, the term "red imperialism." And this is a perfect example of the level of creativity that fascism praises. Behind this term, Japanese and Chinese fascists hope to conquer China. But we don't need to look beyond the history of the Kuomintang to see if this kind of propaganda has any meaning. If there really is such a thing as "red imperialism," then the very life of the Nanjing government itself owes its existence to it. Everyone knows that when Mr. Sun Yat-sen led the Kuomintang revolution, Borodin and General Galen were helping the Kuomintang, and the Communist Party also cooperated with it, and many of the best cadres in the revolution. At that time, no Kuomintang member talked about "red imperialism." But when the Kuomintang became counter-revolutionary, betrayed Mr. Sun's doctrine, began to oppress peasants and workers, and compromised with imperialism, its worst elements created the term "red imperialism" as a cover for reactionary propaganda, thereby concealing their betrayal of the Chinese people. What are the facts? Even Chiang Kai-shek cannot deny that when the Kuomintang cooperated with the Soviet Union and the Communist Party, the revolution reached a high level, imperialism was shaken to its roots, and the prospect of national liberation was extremely bright. After Mr. Sun Yat-sen's death, the worst elements in his party began to betray his doctrine and policies, the national revolutionary movement suddenly began to decline, the Kuomintang lost all its revolutionary content, compromised with imperialism, surrendered the best parts of China to Japan without resistance, and accepted imperialist help to wage a long war against the people's revolution. After only ten years of imperialist aggression, the Chinese masses are rapidly being enslaved, and Nanjing is now beginning to understand that the Soviet Union is China's true friend, and that the Kuomintang must reunite with the Soviet Union and the Chinese Communist Party to resist imperialism. Today, the struggle has sharpened into a war between two camps. The first, led by Japan, is composed of traitors and reactionaries, who, together with Japanese imperialism, form the so-called anti-communist front; the second is composed of the majority of the Chinese people and those countries sympathetic to the Chinese revolution, which is the anti-Japanese imperialist front. The anti-Japanese front is based on cooperation with the Soviet Union and other countries sympathetic to China's struggle for independence. The meaning of the anti-communist front is national subjugation, and the meaning of the anti-Japanese front is national liberation. The Chinese people must gradually align themselves with one or the other of these two irreconcilable fronts. It is true that many Kuomintang members are now forced by circumstances, or to maintain their own existence, to reconsider their policies. In the past, there were patriots such as Soong Ching-ling, He Xiangning, Chen Mingshu, Cai Tingkai, Li Jishen, Jiang Guangnai, who knew the fundamental error of the Kuomintang's desire to "eliminate the Communist Party." Today, Li Zongren, Feng Yuxiang, Sun Ke, T.V. Soong, Zhang Xueliang, and others are also changing their ideas and seem willing to revive their cooperation with the Soviet Union. We firmly support close cooperation with the Soviet Union to resist Japan, and we welcome cooperation with any faction that wants to stop the Chinese civil war, establish a united democratic people's government to resist Japan, and defend the interests of the nation and its people.

I asked: How do you explain the repeated victories of the Red Army under extremely unequal circumstances? What is the secret of its invincibility?

Mao replied: There are three reasons. First, the Red Army is the army of the people, and they support it in every way. It cannot be eliminated unless the people who support and love it are eliminated first. At the same time, when the White Army fights in the Red areas, they are not only fighting the Red Army, but the entire people of the Soviet areas. Second, our existence is due to the correct strategic and tactical leadership of the Communist Party. Third, the commanders of the Red Army are talented, correct, shrewd, loyal, and sincere. Every Red Army commander can accept bribes and bonuses issued by Nanjing at any time and make a fortune and quit, but in the nine years of war, only a few commanders have betrayed to the Kuomintang.

I asked: When the Chinese Red movement is successfully victorious, do you think that revolution will rapidly occur in other Asian colonial or semi-colonial countries, such as Korea, Annam, the Philippines, India, etc.? Is China currently the "key" to world revolution?

Mao replied: The Chinese revolution occupies a key element in the world situation, and its victory is eagerly awaited by the people of every country, especially the working masses in the colonies. When the Chinese revolution gains full power, the masses in many colonial countries will follow China's example to achieve their own similar victories. But I must emphasize again that we are not aiming to "seize political power." We want to stop the civil war, establish a people's democratic government with the Kuomintang and other political parties, and fight Japan for our independence.

I asked: Do you have any opinion on the approximate length of time required for the Chinese revolution to finally succeed throughout China?

Mao replied: The victory of the Chinese revolution will naturally be determined by the objective situation developed by all revolutionary struggles, and at the same time, these situations are too complex to predict now. But we can say that this victory is not far off, and it will coincide with the victory of the Chinese people's resistance against Japanese aggression. The Chinese people will adopt the system of government most suitable for them, and at the same time, we believe this system is a democratic republic, with all political power in the hands of the enfranchised masses. Institutionally, we believe that the Soviet system, from the central government down to the smallest village, is a representative system, which is the most suitable organ for realizing democratic politics and best serving the interests of the Chinese masses.

I asked: What are the revolution's first internal tasks after the anti-Japanese struggle?

Mao replied: The Chinese revolution, being of a bourgeois democratic nature, its basic task is the readjustment of the land problem—the realization of land reform. Looking at the figures of land distribution in China today, one can see a glimpse of the urgent need for rural reform. During the period of the National Revolution, I served as the secretary of the Kuomintang Peasant Committee and was responsible for collecting statistics from various regions across twenty-one provinces. Our research showed astonishing inequality. About seventy percent of the entire peasant population were poor peasants, tenant farmers, semi-tenant farmers, and hired laborers. About twenty percent were middle peasants who cultivated their own land. Usurers and landlords accounted for about ten percent of the total. Within this ten percent, there were also rich peasants and exploiters such as warlords and tax collectors. These ten percent of rich peasants, landlords, and usurers together owned seventy percent of the cultivated land. Twelve to fifteen percent was in the hands of middle peasants. Seventy percent of poor peasants, tenant farmers, semi-tenant farmers, and hired laborers owned only ten to fifteen percent of the total cultivated land. Naturally, there were large discrepancies in statistics in different regions of the country, and these discrepancies were sometimes evident even in adjacent counties. The figures I cited are the average for all of China obtained from our research, compiled by many peasant committee workers from twenty-one provinces at that time. These figures were naturally banned after the counter-revolution, and now, ten years later, we still cannot get a statement of China's land distribution from Nanjing. However, these facts explain a lot about the success of the Red Army. The revolution was mainly caused by two kinds of oppression—imperialists and ten percent of landlords and Chinese exploiters. So we can say that in our demands for a democratic system, land reform, and an anti-imperialist war, we are only oppressed by ten percent of the entire population. At the same time, it is actually not ten percent, perhaps only about five percent, because not so many Chinese would become traitors and unite with Japan, under the plan of a united "anti-communist pact," to conquer their own people.